AA kicks out two Toronto secular chapters

[9-10ths_Penguin]

By leaving out the steps one may not like, they sabatge the process of recovery. It's about pride really.

No, it's about a desire to help even the people that AA excludes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No need to be condescending. I can spot differences - when there are differences.

Here's the deal with AA. Not sure if you've ever gone to an AA meeting, but I have because I accompanied a good friend of mine who was struggling with how to handle a family member with substance abuse issues.

AA's mission statement does not stand independently from it's 12 step process. If you go to a typical AA meeting, you are IMMEDIATELY exposed to the 12 steps. You can't avoid them. You can't avoid the references to a Higher Power. They are integral to the program, and this is not hidden.

So then AA misrepresented itself when it said that it's for anyone who wants to stop drinking.

My church has a mission statement. Our mission statement is "Love God. Share His grace." That's it. But that's not all that our church believes or stands for. If you visit my church, you will immediately realize that there's a lot more to the idea of doctrine and practice than simply "Love God. Share His grace."

That's a jumping off point - the start of the process so to speak. But it's immediately obvious that there's a lot more to it. Same with AA. Nothing is hidden or sneaky about the 12 Steps. My gosh, the mantra of 12 Steps is everywhere - it permeates the program. It IS the program.

The whole point of having a mission statement is that it guides the policies and directions of the organization. The lower-level doctrines/procedures provide more detail and specificity, but they don't contradict the overall mission statement. Not when things are working properly, anyhow.

By the way - as I've stated repeatedly - there is a difference between MEMBERSHIP in the program, and starting up a CHAPTER of the program. Membership and leadership are not the same animal.

Anyone can be a member if they simply want to stop drinking. But as they go along the 12 steps, they may hit steps they don't agree with. That's OK too - but they won't be comfortable and they won't be utilizing the whole program if they omit the uncomfortable parts. That's OK too - they can still be members. AA isn't lying about this or hiding it.

But membership isn't the question. Leadership and the integrity of the program itself is in question. No one at AA is saying that atheists can't be members. All they are saying is that the 12 steps - the very core of their program - cannot be changed and still touted as an AA program.

It may be something else - and it may be successful. But it won't be an AA program.

Define "AA program". Is it a program that's based on the 12 steps and is steeped in this idea of a "higher power"? Is it a program that's intended for every single alcoholic who wants to change, and is entirely focused on getting them to overcome their addiction? Because AA makes itself out to be both.

The leadership of these two chapters took the second viewpoint of AA to heart and were de-listed for it.

By the way, I haven't seen or heard of any AA leadership trying to stop other groups from starting new programs which include elements of AA. The atheists who wish to do so are free to do so. They just can't call it AA. I don't see the problem with that.

You don't see the problem with hypocrisy?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So then AA misrepresented itself when it said that it's for anyone who wants to stop drinking.


The whole point of having a mission statement is that it guides the policies and directions of the organization. The lower-level doctrines/procedures provide more detail and specificity, but they don't contradict the overall mission statement. Not when things are working properly, anyhow.


Define "AA program". Is it a program that's based on the 12 steps and is steeped in this idea of a "higher power"? Is it a program that's intended for every single alcoholic who wants to change, and is entirely focused on getting them to overcome their addiction? Because AA makes itself out to be both.

The leadership of these two chapters took the second viewpoint of AA to heart and were de-listed for it.


You don't see the problem with hypocrisy?

It's not rocket science, man. If AA allowed its program to be changed, THEN and only then would it be a hypocritical institution.

The program centers on the power of a religions conversion as the ONLY way to break addiction. If it abandoned this principle, then it would not have a program.

That said, AA describes the focus of the religious conversion as "God," but leaves it to the member to define the center of their religious conversion. So "God" in the AA program is any "God" that the member chooses or creates.

The only criteria to join or attend AA meetings is to be an alcoholic. The program is an inherently religious one, so if the alcoholic is militantly against any kind of religious talk or religious conversion, AA is not the program for them.

But if AA were to abandon the core of the program - religious conversion - then it would be hypocritical and, if they really believe this, they would be endangering the lives of the people that they want to help.

 

[idav]

Being sort of a nontheist I can't agree with the AA philosophy. Saying the choices made are out of my hands goes against my core beliefs. I can understand the higher power thing to mean something as simple as my inner self. So tapping into this "higher power" and not being able to do things by ones own will is contradictory in my eyes.

The main difference I see is the core philosophy of AA verses secular versions is that AA insists that it is a horrible disease that you have no control over which goes straight in the face of secular idea of no god. The first step of admitting be powerless says it all which secular will likely not abide by. If we are powerless who is supposed to control addiction God (step 2)?

In essence the other alcohol treatments are in competition on method. AA does not want the competition. When other treatments do work AA says "they weren't really alcoholics to begin with".

 

[angellous_evangellous]

AA does not want the competition. When other treatments do work AA says "they weren't really alcoholics to begin with".

First, I don't think that AA gives a rat's behind about "competition." There are plenty of drunks to go around.

Second, I would really like to see where AA says that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The only criteria to join or attend AA meetings is to be an alcoholic. The program is an inherently religious one, so if the alcoholic is militantly against any kind of religious talk or religious conversion, AA is not the program for them.

IOW, the AA program is only for people who are either religious already or are open to conversion. I think it's dishonest to say that such a program is for everyone.

 

[idav]

It isn't a competition for profit but more a proving ground of who is right and who is wrong. AA shoots themselves in the foot by defining alcoholic as someone who is powerless against alcohol (see step 1). When an atheist goes to some secular meeting and they quit drinking and didn't use god then they weren't an alcoholic cause again they are "powerless". It is from the philosophy and goes into the attitudes of the members from what I've seen when trying to research the competing theories. I've even been told I'm not really an alcoholic to my face when I went to observe an AA meeting. It is a big debate what really makes an alcoholic and what the most effective treatments are. AA gets there opinion and philosophy right from the 12 steps.

 

[waitasec]

First, I don't think that AA gives a rat's behind about "competition." There are plenty of drunks to go around.

i don't think competition is the right word...perhaps the success rate is what idav is eluding to...

Second, I would really like to see where AA says that.

why did they do what they did... just because they wanted to...? na, that does't fly with me... i think there is an ulterior motive and i think idav is on to something.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

IOW, the AA program is only for people who are either religious already or are open to conversion. I think it's dishonest to say that such a program is for everyone.

Perhaps you misunderstood me.

AA is for anyone in the sense that it is open to everyone.

AA does have a program in which a very minute portion of the population would not be comfortable.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps you misunderstood me.

AA is for anyone in the sense that it is open to everyone.

At least you acknowledge that the AA program is about "religious conversion". AA presents a public face of being entirely dedicated to nothing but addiction recovery, with no mention of religion.

AA does have a program in which a very minute portion of the population would not be comfortable.

I would say it's quite a bit more than "a very minute portion".

 

[gnomon]

By leaving out the steps one may not like, they sabatge the process of recovery. It's about pride really.

It's not about pride at all. It's the exact opposite.

The 12 step process is an ego destroying process. The biggest step which is the 4th step, one in which sponsors will warn against doing until you are absolutely sure of doing and often called the greatest reason for relapse, is the most ego destroying step of all. Making a list of people in which you think you have harmed and then seeking those people out to make restitution can be a strange process.

A lot of people who end up in the 12 step programs suffer from mental illness. People with many mental illnesses do not have a strong ego. It can be quite the opposite case in which people with manic-depression, schizophrenia, DID, etc. have very weak egos and the process of going through the 12 steps can actually be more damaging than helpful.

I've seen some A.A. groups that would have victims of sexual abuse do a 4th step towards their victims when such a process is shattering to the individual. People who drank themselves to the point of addiction because they were general **** ups telling people who have mental disorders or suffered severe cases of abuse how to fix their lives isn't just surreal it's nearly criminal. Fortunately, in defense of A.A., this was a rare sight and most of the people I knew from my old home group were advocates of seeking psychological and pharmaceutical help rather than force people to adhere to the strict spiritual process some A.A. clubs take.

I'd hate to think what I would have become if I stayed in A.A. Getting proper psychiatric help and realizing that no matter how much people tried to heap it on my problems were a result of manic-depression and not a drug addiction. It took a long damn time to get to that point but it sure as hell wasn't a spiritual program that "saved" me. And it sure as hell wasn't a point of pride. When you have lived your life borderline shizoid and swinging between mania and severe depression you definitely are not filled with pride and as well your run of the mill addict has no idea of the experience of powerlessness involved with mental illnesses.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

At least you acknowledge that the AA program is about "religious conversion". AA presents a public face of being entirely dedicated to nothing but addiction recovery, with no mention of religion.


I would say it's quite a bit more than "a very minute portion".

If they do that, then they are obviously being deceitful.

 

[Kathryn]

IOW, the AA program is only for people who are either religious already or are open to conversion. I think it's dishonest to say that such a program is for everyone.

Lord help us.

It's OPEN to everyone. Now - whether or not individuals accept the entire program is entirely up to each individual. Does it work for everyone? No. Does everyone who joins AA complete all 12 steps? No.

Some people who attend AA programs hit problems with other parts of the 12 steps, which don't even have anything to do with a diety or higher power. Are they banned from membership? No. But if they, for instance, plan to start a chapter and leave out some of the twelve steps they disagree with (for instance, contacting people you've wronged by your addictions, and making amends), then - they're free to do so, but they're not free to call it an AA program.

I am officially done repeating myself on this point.

 

[Kathryn]

Just an aside note - AA isn't a "right." The general population doesn't have the "right" not to be offended by any of the program. The general population doesn't have the "right" to a private organization's program to eliminate any part of their private program which they disagree with. My gosh, what would we end up with then?

I recently decided to get involved with a local charity. I decided to "shop around." Every single charity I looked into was more than willing to accept my participation. But I found the one which fit my beliefs the best. Imagine if I had walked in and said, "You know, I want to join your organization, but I really can't agree with your stand on gay rights. So...let's change that, shall we? Let's change your mission statement so that I can work with your organization - which you do say is open to everyone, right? OK - I'm one of everyone and I disagree with part of your program. To expect me to go along with it is forcing me to accept something I disagree with.

Let's rewrite your program so that everyone - but especially me - can join your organization without feeling offended or uncomfortable. In fact, if you don't rewrite your program, I think I'll sue you. Or, better yet, I'll just start a chapter of my own, using your charity's name and trademark, but I'll just write out everything you stand for that I disagree with. That way I get to capitalize on your name, but I get to run things my way. How's that?"

 

[Muffled]

No, it's about a desire to help even the people that AA excludes.

It won't work. I have never heard of anyone who could reson their way out of alcoholism. Alcholism doesn't work exclusively from the mind. Smoking can be a similar addiction and one I have a little experience becaus my wife smokes. In her mind she reasoned that she would like to stop smoking but within her psyche or will the desire to smoke was still there. No amount of reasoning could overcome that desire.

Perhaps that is why AA requires a person to release their will to a higher power.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Lord help us.

It's OPEN to everyone. Now - whether or not individuals accept the entire program is entirely up to each individual. Does it work for everyone? No. Does everyone who joins AA complete all 12 steps? No.

Yes... it's open to everyone in the same sense that a revival is open to everyone.

Some people who attend AA programs hit problems with other parts of the 12 steps, which don't even have anything to do with a diety or higher power. Are they banned from membership? No. But if they, for instance, plan to start a chapter and leave out some of the twelve steps they disagree with (for instance, contacting people you've wronged by your addictions, and making amends), then - they're free to do so, but they're not free to call it an AA program.

From AA's 12 Traditions:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

A. A. Traditions Long Form

It seems to me that the decision to create a secular version of the 12 steps comes out of an honest, reasonable interpretation of the principle stated in the "tradition" above. It also seems to me that making AA dependent on belief in a Higher Power goes against this tradition.

IMO, it's not a matter of outside people coming in and deciding to change things. Rather, this is a matter of people dedicated to the AA cause who realized the conflict inherent in AA and looked to resolve it:

- IMO, it's clear that an organization supposedly geared for all people that's dependent on religious belief is going to become increasingly irrelevant in an increasingly non-believing world. To stay with the status quo would be detrimental to the common welfare of AA; the First Tradition implies that this is unacceptable.

- Also, these people witnessed real alcoholics who were seeking sobriety, but were pushed away by AA's religious message... something that's unrelated to actually overcoming addiction. This was detrimental to the individual welfare of a significant number of members and prospective members. Again, AA's First Tradition implies that this situation is unacceptable.

- For reinforcement, the Fifth Tradition states that the organization's whole purpose is focused on sobriety. This implies that anything that distracts from this purpose should be set aside. In the case of non-religious people, the religious nature of the AA program fits this bill.

So... with all that in mind, and remembering the Second and Fourth Traditions that tell them that their group has the autonomy to act as it sees fit for the benefit of its members' sobriety, they took steps that they felt were required by those other principles.

And then, in contravention of the Third Tradition, AA booted them.

This is not a matter of people trying to break the rules; this is a matter of people trying to follow conflicting rules as best they could.

It won't work. I have never heard of anyone who could reson their way out of alcoholism. Alcholism doesn't work exclusively from the mind. Smoking can be a similar addiction and one I have a little experience becaus my wife smokes. In her mind she reasoned that she would like to stop smoking but within her psyche or will the desire to smoke was still there. No amount of reasoning could overcome that desire.

Perhaps that is why AA requires a person to release their will to a higher power.

If this really is the case, then why is it that many other addiction recovery programs that don't reference a "higher power" are just as successful as AA?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If this really is the case, then why is it that many other addiction recovery programs that don't reference a "higher power" are just as successful as AA?

*Or more...

 

[idav]

It won't work. I have never heard of anyone who could reson their way out of alcoholism.

I have read that AA did have some success with people who don't believe in god and the book says that it should work even if your an atheist. Now how is that supposed to work if the person doesn't believe in a higher power? An atheist would contend that this higher power they are tapping into is something within themselves giving them strength. What would you say? Would you say god is doing it and the person just thinks it's himself as an unbeliever?

 

[idav]

I can't really agree with some christian notions that we are born to sin and can't be good without a god. I believe we have more power over ourselves than people like to think but thats cause I'm a buddhist heathen lol!