AA kicks out two Toronto secular chapters

[drsatish]

All of my previous comments
were based on my careful reading of
the 12 steps posted by Kathryn.

Kathryn even highlighted the Hims and Hisses for us.

In fact, she highlighted pretty much everything
that narrows the "Higher Power" concept
down to something very .....
well.... not possibly many other things
besides christian.





In light of these 12,
I stand by my previous posts.

“ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.”
Then Why “Him.”
(as per AA official site also)
http://www.aa.org/1212/launch.php?link=_en
Why NOT “Her” or it or IT or something else?
Idolatry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What alcoholics are craving for is NOT alcohol, but a sense of absence of pain & suffering and a temporary feeling of well-being and confidence. I don’t think they continue drinking for “kicks“- for which they may have initially started. There are physiological issues beyond their control like “tolerance”, “withdrawal symptoms.” Also, emotional issues may be involved like broken homes, divorced parents, being divorced, constant physical and emotional threats, loss of a dear one, loss of a job, loss in business, loss of face, loss of “social standing” etc.
Alcohol tolerance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What Is Alcohol Tolerance?
Tolerance and Beyond :: Health Topics :: University Health Service :: University of Rochester
Symptoms of Alcohol Withdrawal - A List of Alcohol Withdrawal Symptoms
Be Kind and Help Him or Her.
& don’t treat Him or Her as …IT!
Satish

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What is implied in being "delisted"?

AFAIK, they're removed from AA's online and printed directories, and they no longer have any affiliation with the AA organization.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yep. They have been in business for quite a while and they know what they are doing. If some newbies want to come along and shove their anti-God agenda down AA's throat, AA has every right to give them the boot.

Nonsense. AA is not infallible, and the whole reason why this thread even exists in the first place is because they have specifically failed to realize and deal properly with the reality that some people won't answer well to appeals to faith in God.

Painting that as an "anti-God agenda" from "newbies" does no one any favors.

(And why on Earth must one not be a "newbie" to want to fight addiction to alcohol anyway? :areyoucra)

 

[Willamena]

AFAIK, they're removed from AA's online and printed directories, and they no longer have any affiliation with the AA organization.

But is that such a terrible thing? Why are people actually weeping about it (per the newspaper article)?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But is that such a terrible thing? Why are people actually weeping about it (per the newspaper article)?

I think it's partly because they feel a strong connection to the organization, and partly because they know that the directory is the main way that new people find their groups.

 

[gnomon]

I have to agree with daddy-o on one thing. How many people think AA works is kind of off the mark.

Preaching a religion will pretty much get you the cold treatment from other members. The same with NA except they will still hug you every 15 minutes.

AA is filled with members under court order and every case I know of in which someone challenged mandatory AA attendance by the State has won their case under the establishment clause. However, do not think that AA groups are always thrilled with the notion that their clubhouses receive a lot of new people under court order. I've seen members refuse to sign the little cards probation officers give people to show attendance because of their personal philosophy against the court ordered attendance.

If a group of people get together and use the Big Book as their "textbook" for recovery they are essentially an AA group. A centralized organization is under no obligation to list them and an anonymous group is under no obligation to adhere to the central organization. It's just a collective agreement whereby the majority of groups adhere to a set of traditions that is the general services.

My experience with a number of groups is that the viewpoint of "organized religion" is a very low opinion. Hence you will often hear the phrase "spiritual but not religious". My first home group had a member who still drank but was kicking a crack habit. She attended AA due to the atmosphere because NA groups can often tend to be.......a bit different. Leave it at that. Made for some very uncomfortable meetings, however. One group ran out of a church was strictly religious in a sense not about God but about the issue of powerlessness. They wouldn't accept your efforts at recovery unless you basically admitted that you were powerless to sit the right way on a toilet seat before joining AA.

 

[no-body]

Hmm the people I have talked with who where in AA about this in the past have all pretty much said the same thing: AA is about getting clean period, if you don't like the religious aspect then just say the coke machine or the coffee machine is your higher power (they all use this line so I'm guessing this is a stock response)

Of course people who are in AA and AA itself as an organization might differ.

I think anything that helps people get clean for free is a good deal but if the program is suddenly going to get all anal about the religious aspects then the state needs to find another program.

As someone who got clean by themselves I am conflicted on the matter. When people say things like "they're just trading one addiction for another" I say well so what? At least this addiction isn't going to kill them and ruin their lives.

Same for moderation I am a person born without the addiction gene so I have never really struggled with my addictions but I have seen people that definitely for them it is like a mental illness. Snotty shows like south park and family guy don't help either "derrr just drink/use in moderation anything else is you trying to excuse bad behavior" they really tick me off, as if anyone who is an addict hasn't thought of that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hmm the people I have talked with who where in AA about this in the past have all pretty much said the same thing: AA is about getting clean period, if you don't like the religious aspect then just say the coke machine or the coffee machine is your higher power (they all use this line so I'm guessing this is a stock response)

I've heard people say that, too, but like I touched on in my reply to CatholicCrusader, I don't see how it makes any sense.

How could someone who's taken the Coke machine as his higher power, or even something actually important but not a deity, and who's earnestly trying to work through each step, actually complete those steps?

I mean, say an atheist decides that the "Higher Power" for him is the love of his children. It's probably a fine motivation to get sober in general, but what does it mean to "pray to the love of your children", as would be required by step 11?

In the case of taking the Coke machine as God, it gets really silly: how is a coin operated vending machine supposed to "remove your shortcomings"?

 

[waitasec]

AFAIK, they're removed from AA's online and printed directories, and they no longer have any affiliation with the AA organization.

will they be recognized by the courts as a legit place to help those to recover from addiction?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

will they be recognized by the courts as a legit place to help those to recover from addiction?

Frankly, I'm having trouble finding out whether AA is recognized in Ontario by the courts to begin with for addiction recovery.

My suspicion (and it's just a suspicion, because I can't track down the official word) is that court-ordered treatment may have to be performed by an accredited addiction counselor, not by a group like AA. I wouldn't be surprised if a counselor recommended that the addict go to a group as well, but I don't know if AA would satisfy any court-ordered treatment requirements by itself.

 

[no-body]

I've heard people say that, too, but like I touched on in my reply to CatholicCrusader, I don't see how it makes any sense.

How could someone who's taken the Coke machine as his higher power, or even something actually important but not a deity, and who's earnestly trying to work through each step, actually complete those steps?

I mean, say an atheist decides that the "Higher Power" for him is the love of his children. It's probably a fine motivation to get sober in general, but what does it mean to "pray to the love of your children", as would be required by step 11?

In the case of taking the Coke machine as God, it gets really silly: how is a coin operated vending machine supposed to "remove your shortcomings"?

I imagine this is where really wanting to get clean kicks in I doubt it's supposed to make sense. Drinking to the point of ruining your life is irrational on an intellectual level too.

 

[waitasec]

Frankly, I'm having trouble finding out whether AA is recognized in Ontario by the courts to begin with for addiction recovery.

My suspicion (and it's just a suspicion, because I can't track down the official word) is that court-ordered treatment may have to be performed by an accredited addiction counselor, not by a group like AA. I wouldn't be surprised if a counselor recommended that the addict go to a group as well, but I don't know if AA would satisfy any court-ordered treatment requirements by itself.

in the states AA seems to be the only court ordered treatment
i may be wrong, in fact i would like to be wrong...

 

[Quagmire]

All of my previous comments
were based on my careful reading of
the 12 steps posted by Kathryn.

Kathryn even highlighted the Hims and Hisses for us.

In fact, she highlighted pretty much everything
that narrows the "Higher Power" concept
down to something very .....
well.... not possibly many other things
besides christian.





In light of these 12,
I stand by my previous posts.

I must have been handed the progressive version then. Still, just the fact that later editions made that change should say something.

Anyway, you only responded to one of my points. If that's good enough for you than I guess I'll just let it go and figure you have some vested interest in seeing this the way you do.

 

[gnomon]

I've heard people say that, too, but like I touched on in my reply to CatholicCrusader, I don't see how it makes any sense.

How could someone who's taken the Coke machine as his higher power, or even something actually important but not a deity, and who's earnestly trying to work through each step, actually complete those steps?

I mean, say an atheist decides that the "Higher Power" for him is the love of his children. It's probably a fine motivation to get sober in general, but what does it mean to "pray to the love of your children", as would be required by step 11?

In the case of taking the Coke machine as God, it gets really silly: how is a coin operated vending machine supposed to "remove your shortcomings"?

The reason behind picking anything to be your higher power is twofold. One it focuses on something other than alcohol, or whatever the addiction is to, that was the higher power during active addiction and the purpose of the steps is basically to shatter the ego. Using a coke machine as a higher power an individual is not really praying to or relying on the machine to help them but they are focusing their attention away from reliance on the substance they are addicted to. The most common non-divine GOD is either the group itself or the concept of "Good Orderly Direction". Thus, an atheist can just take the group as their higher power. Which in my opinion is really what the majority of AA's are using as their higher power with the incessant need to talk about it.

It's expected that even taking something silly, which people in AA will admit is silly, moves on to a different concept of a higher power. Just that in the groups I attended that higher power could never be the self.

 

[gnomon]

in the states AA seems to be the only court ordered treatment
i may be wrong, in fact i would like to be wrong...

It will vary state by state but in some areas courts have already determined that AA is a religious organization and that the law cannot only mandate AA treatment. It can mandate a treatment which can be AA or another organization and some cases even a system devised by the individual on probation/parole as long as the probation/parole office approves it.

I believe at this time 7 Circuit courts have all ruled that mandated AA treatment with threat of jail for refusal and no alternative treatments are accepted is forced religious coercion.

 

[waitasec]

It will vary state by state but in some areas courts have already determined that AA is a religious organization and that the law cannot only mandate AA treatment. It can mandate a treatment which can be AA or another organization and some cases even a system devised by the individual on probation/parole as long as the probation/parole office approves it.

I believe at this time 7 Circuit courts have all ruled that mandated AA treatment with threat of jail for refusal and no alternative treatments are accepted is forced religious coercion.

thanx gnomon!!!

 

[Kathryn]

The court cannot offer AA in exchange for other punishments
to people who can muster AA's appropriate GOD concepts,
and then NOTHING AT ALL for everybody else.

This would be religious favoritism.

You offer "deals"(appropriate alternatives) for everybody,
or nobody.

That's why I said that the court should not require AA meetings as a condition of any sort of court order.

The court doesn't "offer" AA meetings currently by the way. Therefore it has no responsibility to "offer" any other god-free alternatives.

 

[linwood]

Religious belief is the core of AA's program.

You don`t see this as parallel to the earlier thread posted about the Catholic diocese that stopped adoption services due to there religious belief?

It makes me wonder what the "real" goal of these organizations are.
Are they here to actually help in their stated areas or are they here to proselytize?

What is their true agenda?
To get people out of addictions or to push god belief?

From these posts it seems pretty clear it`s the latter.

 

[kepha31]

You can tell a tree by it's fruits, and AA has helped millions of people attain sobriety. Sobriety does not mean "not drinking", it means having a spiritual awakening where the drunk comes to terms with their character defects on a much deeper level than just not drinking. There is a vast difference between a dry drunk and a recovererd alcoholic. AA is not an evangelical program. There is a great deal of flexibility for AA members, even some who are atheists. From my experience (years ago) in Adult Children of Alcoholics, I have to say that a godlless AA group is a contadiction in terms. AA is a spiritual program and that is why it has been successful since its inception.
AA groups may not work for 100% for those who enter its doors, but neither does any pscho-babble government program work 100% either.

I've compared the AA 12 steps with the agnotic steps. It's like comparing a vaccine with a watered down version. The first one worked, the second one might work. Most addicts of all stripes have bitter pre-conceived notions about religion, spirituality and God and that is partly why they are addicts in the first place.
Most recovered drug addicts, over-eater, gambler or alcoholic who lives the 12 step program will agree with me. If an agnostic AA group gets thrown out its because they have compromised what has proven to work and the whole thing is silly if you ask me.

 

[Muffled]

I imagine this is where really wanting to get clean kicks in I doubt it's supposed to make sense. Drinking to the point of ruining your life is irrational on an intellectual level too.

Perhaps this is why 93% don't succed because in fact they lack faith in God. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Good luck to those trying it without a higher power. My guess is that they will fall in with the 93%.