AA kicks out two Toronto secular chapters

[angellous_evangellous]

It's funny how people who don't know anything about a topic can have such strong feelings about it.

 

[waitasec]

The whole point of enjoying a strawberry pie is enjoying the strawberries.

i always thought the underlying mission of AA was to get people sober...you said this and i agree 100%

AA's religious nature, while the core of its program, is very open and undefined (unless, of course, it is misapplied). One can define "God" anyway that one wants, but religious aspect is the core.

The problem with AA is that it believes that the power of conversion is the only power that can break addiction. The problem is, a religious conversion can't be forced, replicated, or initiated.

i really didn't know that AA was about converting people...from what i heard it's where musicians hang to meet other musicians...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

i always thought the underlying mission of AA was to get people sober...you said this and i agree 100%

i really didn't know that AA was about converting people...from what i heard it's where musicians hang to meet other musicians...

They don't - in the sense that AA has a dogmatic view of God such as the Christian one - and pressures someone to accept that doctrine. God is undefined. The principle is conversion, but to a higher power that the participant chooses. It can be your big toe, your igo, Julius Caesar or Jesus. It is much more subtle than pushing a God on someone.

Now if someone is a militant atheist, AA is typically not for them.

 

[Kathryn]

so the entire point of AA is to lead people to god, not help them sober up?

Please refer to my above post which clearly outlines the twelve steps and twelve traditions of AA groups.

 

[blackout]

No, of course you wouldn't. You are an atheist, who does not believe in the existance of a Higher Power, so you don't see how the belief in a Higher Power could possibly be an asset to the tenets of the AA program.

In fact, the belief in a Higher Power is a major component of the AA program.

You know - it's like a strawberry pie. If you don't use strawberries, you may still be able to make a pie - but it won't be a strawberry pie.

You can call yourself an atheist, but if you say, "Yes, I'm an atheist, but I believe there may be a god," then you're not an atheist.

The AA Twelve Steps:





These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of Godas we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

The AA Twelve Traditions:

The Twelve Traditions accompany the Twelve Steps. The Traditions provide guidelines for group governance. They were developed in AA in order to help resolve conflicts in the areas of publicity, religion and finances. Most twelve-step fellowships have adopted these principles for their structural governance. The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous are as follows.

1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. An AA group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every AA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

9. AA, as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Well this is clearly a RHP "personal, interventional, all knowing, miracle working
god with a will for you/your life, greater than yourself but not yourself"
(I'm a helpless worm on my own)
RELIGIOUS GROUP.
And this is fine.
But it is not fine that people are told by courts
that they must attend, in order to avoid some other punishment
or action/s taken against them.
This would be state en-forced religion.
A clear violation of seperation of church and state.
There must be some non religious alternative offered/available/optional.

I personally find this whole mindset
just as damaging,
just as much a problem,
as alchoholism.

 

[Quagmire]

From TheStar.com:

I found this especially telling about the impact of this decision, as well as the positive effect of these secular chapters:

What does everyone else think of this? Is it appropriate for the biggest support group for recovering alcoholics to demand religious faith of its members?

Doesn't sound like they're "demanding religious faith of it's members".

Sounds more like they got peeved because someone tried to re-write the 12 steps. My guess is that it's more about purist elitism than religion.

 

[Quagmire]

Its quite disguisting to exploit peoples alcoholism as a means of converting them to Christianity..

That's not even sort of whats going on here.

Believe me, if you ever want to get kicked out of a place quick go into an AA meeting and start preaching Christianity.

 

[blackout]

That's not even sort of whats going on here.

Believe me, if you ever want to get kicked out of a place quick go into an AA meeting and start preaching Christianity.

Yet Quag.... how many religions even,
fall in line with this kind of gOd concept?
Not many.

Never mind the fact that most GOD concepts
don't even nearly fall in line with those required of this "AA GOD concept".

The Christian GOD and the GOD of Islam....
come first and foremost to mind.....

and then?......
maybe some (people's) forms/ideas of Panentheism?

maybe.

Those 12 steps define the christian (and Islamic) GOD,
practically by default.
(if it quacks.... a rose by any other name... et al...)

 

[Quagmire]

Yet Quag.... how many religions even,
fall in line with this kind of gOd concept?
Not many.

Never mind the fact that most GOD concepts
don't even nearly fall in line with those required of this "AA GOD concept".

The Christian GOD and the GOD of Islam....
come first and foremost to mind.....

and then?......

Sorry V, I have no idea what you're saying here.

Are you saying that AA's "higher power" concept does or doesn't most closely resemble the Judao/Christian God concept?

 

[blackout]

Sorry V, I have no idea what you're saying here.

Are you saying that AA's "higher power" concept does or doesn't most closely resemble the Judao/Christian God concept?

I added to my post while you were responding.

Did that help?

If not, I'll try to be more specific.

 

[blackout]

ok. Also certain pagan "pantheon" religions
could conform to the AA GOD requirements,
(ex. Kemetic Worship) which do not consider their GODS
to be an extention (in any way) of the (their) psyche.
(because that would still put YOU in the "GODseat")
Maybe also Wicca?
I really don't know enough about it to say.

 

[Quagmire]

and then?......
maybe some (people's) forms/ideas of Panentheism?

maybe.

Those 12 steps define the christian (and Islamic) GOD,
practically by default.
(if it quacks.... a rose by any other name... et al...)

Oh, OK, now I see what you're saying. My answer to that would be: only on the most superficial level.

You have to take into account where, when,and by whom this thing was founded. AA's Big book was written by a couple of American Mid-westerners in the 1930s, ie., people who were immersed in Judeo/Christian concepts and jargon their entire lives. Given that, I think the Judeo/Christian overtones are forgivable, and by my experience most of the people in AA either ignore or look past those.

Also, we should give credit where it's due: even given the predominantly Christian atmosphere that this thing was conceived in, you'll notice there's an intentional lack of personal pronouns in reference to God. God is never referred to as "He" in any of the 12 steps. Everywhere where He is mentioned, it just says "God". I think that's pretty progressively non-patriarchal all things considered.

This; "Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God " leaves it about as wide open for personal interpretation as could be asked for.

 

[Wombat]

I personally find this whole mindset
just as damaging,
just as much a problem,
as alchoholism.

Indeed and agreed. And sometimes it gets even stranger and more damaging. Five years ago I worked as a Recreation Officer in a Salvation Army Rehab Facility. At least six of the twelve clients were attending on Court Orders and/or vuluntarily to avoid jail time. The religious overtones were one thing (usually dismissed as a joke by the clients), AA had three branches in town (so it was find the one with least God emphasis if inclined)...but what was inescapable was the D&A Counsellor who had decided that ‘The Secret’ was >the answer< to all that ails anyone. Each of the guys had been obliged to watch ‘The Secret’ Vid at least six times in as many months...and all were ready to do serious physical harm to the Counsellor.

All kinds of religion/beliefs get foisted upon the vulnerable...it is danderous...and here in Oz it is supposed to be illegal.

But it is not fine that people are told by courts
that they must attend, in order to avoid some other punishment
or action/s taken against them.
This would be state en-forced religion.
A clear violation of seperation of church and state.
There must be some non religious alternative offered/available/optional..

The problem we found here is that (8-10 years ago) the Govt determined that it got more bang for its buck by outsourcing many Welfare programs to Church groups (the Welfare dollar does go further that way...no doubt about it)...but the problem was that the Churches, now hooked on Govt funding, ceased to be vocal advocates for the poor and ceased to be ‘change advocates’ even when change was clearly required. Then, as I mentioned above, the ongoing legal issue/problem that prohibits any attempt to influence the politics/sexuality/religion of anyone in State Care.
And where’s the fun in providing the Care if you cannot convert at the same time?

 

[CatholicCrusader]

......Is it appropriate for the biggest support group for recovering alcoholics to demand religious faith of its members?

Yep. They have been in business for quite a while and they know what they are doing. If some newbies want to come along and shove their anti-God agenda down AA's throat, AA has every right to give them the boot.

 

[Kathryn]

Well this is clearly a RHP "personal, interventional, all knowing, miracle working
god with a will for you/your life, greater than yourself but not yourself"
(I'm a helpless worm on my own)
RELIGIOUS GROUP.
And this is fine.
But it is not fine that people are told by courts
that they must attend, in order to avoid some other punishment
or action/s taken against them.
This would be state en-forced religion.
A clear violation of seperation of church and state.
There must be some non religious alternative offered/available/optional.

I personally find this whole mindset
just as damaging,
just as much a problem,
as alchoholism.

As I've said in earlier posts, I think that it should not be legal for the courts to specifically require AA as a condition of parole or whatever. I am not sure if this is the case - are they requiring specifically AA or just attendance at AA or some SIMILAR program?

Also, it's not AA's responsibility, or even the court's responsibility, to offer a similar program minus the God factor.

 

[blackout]

As I've said in earlier posts, I think that it should not be legal for the courts to specifically require AA as a condition of parole or whatever. I am not sure if this is the case - are they requiring specifically AA or just attendance at AA or some SIMILAR program?

Also, it's not AA's responsibility, or even the court's responsibility, to offer a similar program minus the God factor.

The court cannot offer AA in exchange for other punishments
to people who can muster AA's appropriate GOD concepts,
and then NOTHING AT ALL for everybody else.

This would be religious favoritism.

You offer "deals"(appropriate alternatives) for everybody,
or nobody.

 

[blackout]

Oh, OK, now I see what you're saying. My answer to that would be: only on the most superficial level.

You have to take into account where, when,and by whom this thing was founded. AA's Big book was written by a couple of American Mid-westerners in the 1930s, ie., people who were immersed in Judeo/Christian concepts and jargon their entire lives. Given that, I think the Judeo/Christian overtones are forgivable, and by my experience most of the people in AA either ignore or look past those.

Also, we should give credit where it's due: even given the predominantly Christian atmosphere that this thing was conceived in, you'll notice there's an intentional lack of personal pronouns in reference to God. God is never referred to as "He" in any of the 12 steps. Everywhere where He is mentioned, it just says "God". I think that's pretty progressively non-patriarchal all things considered.

This; "Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God " leaves it about as wide open for personal interpretation as could be asked for.

All of my previous comments
were based on my careful reading of
the 12 steps posted by Kathryn.

Kathryn even highlighted the Hims and Hisses for us.

In fact, she highlighted pretty much everything
that narrows the "Higher Power" concept
down to something very .....
well.... not possibly many other things
besides christian.

The AA Twelve Steps:

These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of Godas we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

In light of these 12,
I stand by my previous posts.

 

[Willamena]

Step 3 in the secular version was changed it to "ensure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without having to accept anyone else&#8217;s beliefs," but ask people to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of the AA program" in direct emulation of AA's third step, but without the same connotation (of turning one's self over to God). I think they could have done a better job of making steps for themselves than just to copy AA's and change a few words.

What is implied in being "delisted"?

 

[CatholicCrusader]

Step 3 in the secular version was changed it to "ensure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without having to accept anyone else&#8217;s beliefs," but ask people to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of the AA program" in direct emulation of AA's third step, but without the same connotation (of turning one's self over to God). I think they could have done a better job of making steps for themselves than just to copy AA's and change a few words.

What is implied in being "delisted"?

But AA makes it plain and clear that your "higher power" does not have to be God. So what was the point?

This was just an attempt by anti-God people to insinuate themselves into yet another old institution. AA did the right thing. If they want to make their own steps then they can make their own organization while they're at it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But AA makes it plain and clear that your "higher power" does not have to be God. So what was the point?

While people do say that your "higher power" can be anything you want, if you actually look at the 12 steps, they become rather nonsensical. if you try to apply them with most non-god "Higher Powers". They imply that "God" (or whatever one puts in place of God for the purposes of the 12 steps) is powerful, active in people's lives, and can be communicated with through prayer. If a thing can meet all of these, then if it's not a God, it's pretty close.

This was just an attempt by anti-God people to insinuate themselves into yet another old institution.

No, it's not. It's a group of people who believe in the 12-step program, but recognized that it was alienating and excluding a fair number of people. So rather than be content with this, they took to heart AA's principles - namely that the program is for ALL alcoholics and that EVERYTHING is secondary to recovery - and acted accordingly.

Unfortunately, AA's principles are somewhat conflicted, so in following some of them, they ran afoul of others; in this case, it was impossible to follow all of them. In turn, the regional organization rejected some principles while following others, but different ones than the secular groups.

I see this as a story of people taking it at face value when AA told them that they had a home there, but found out that this wasn't really the case.

AA did the right thing. If they want to make their own steps then they can make their own organization while they're at it.

Well, there are secular addiction recovery organizations, so the option's open to them. From what I hear, they get better success rates than AA, so maybe it'd all be for the best if they did.

It still doesn't stop the decision to de-list these organizations from being rather hypocritical.