Abolition of Alcohol

[Shadow Wolf]

I see our western way of life has been focused on self gratification for many years, this has taken our focus of the good of all our community.

I won't argue against that, but drugs have been with us for so very long that in one way or another we've been getting intoxicated at least since our earliest days.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But banning and legal system is also needed, and helps alot in my opinion.

Where has banning drugs ever worked?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Where has banning drugs ever worked?

I think it does, when It has some fines. Similar to for example speed thickets. If there was no speed thicket, more people would drive faster, and we will have more accidents. But when they have to pay a fine, more people try to follow rules even if they don't believe in it.

Drugs can be similar to prescribed drugs. If a doctor prescribes Marijuana, one can have it.

 

[England my lionheart]

Abolish drugs sex and alcohol but the icecap is melting away so we concentrate on these trivial things in comparison to the very large gorilla in the room.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As others has said, prohibition was tried and was repealed here in the US. In fact, prohibition created a niche for substantial growth in organized crime.

Certainly, alcohol can be destructive for some people. IMHO a problematic relationship with alcohol it is a symptom, an indication that something is wrong. But I also recognize that for some people, it is a problem from a biological perspective.

My mother was an only child and her mother was an alcoholic. Being the only child/daughter of an alcoholic mother amounts to abandonment, and it has colored her entire life. So I do see the potential destruction.

Personally, I favor education over prohibition.

This OP has made it obvious that there is not too many thinking about Abolition, so that has confirmed that for some time in the future it will not happen, so education is really the only way.

Education is indeed the path to a better virtuous and moral humanity for sure.

I wonder how much support will be found to educate children that the best path is not to take drugs and alcohol! I would guess that the mindset of those that teach would have to change first.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You'll have to give me examples of what you mean for me to understand how this differs from what's currently being taught. I feel they already load the curriculum full of things like 'global citizenship, anti bullying, and personal responsibility'(though I'll be honest, a lot of its more talk than anything).

Some districts or schools do better with it than others, but that's generally how things go.

I don't mean anything complicated. But for example some basic ethical teachings to children about importance of honesty, kindness, etc. Bahais have such a education system for children currently in place. I mean , our personality is shaped when we are children, so, that's the time it is most effective.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have a similar view toward the harm of religion as you do to the harm of alcohol.

It seems the difference between us is that I think trying to legislate away either alcohol or religion would violate important personal freedoms, and you apparently don't value those personal freedoms enough to want to protect them.

If you were successful at convincing me not to value these freedoms either (you won't be, but for argument's sake), then getting rid of your religion would be a higher priority for me than getting rid of alcohol.

TLDR: be careful what you wish for.

I have actually offered it has to be a choice and that I see the future may be full of people that make a choice. I said America has tried abolition and it did not work, so what would it take?

I said recreational drug use needs to be abolished by any means possible.

All the best Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Please tell us in what way consuming alcohol is at all similar to dropping an atomic bomb. Do people consume alcohol and drop atomic bombs for the same reason?

You asked for my stance, I gave it to you, and you reply with a silly comparison. How are you helping humanity with these actions?

It was a metaphor.

Regards Tony

 

[JustGeorge]

I don't mean anything complicated. But for example some basic ethical teachings to children about importance of honesty, kindness, etc. Bahais have such a education system for children currently in place. I mean , our personality is shaped when we are children, so, that's the time it is most effective.

Public education generally teaches this. My sons have done time in both 'good' schools, and 'bad' schools, and the teachings regarding this were not neglected in any of the settings.

What did vary, however, was the other kids. A teacher can preach kindness and tolerance until they're blue in the face, but if the student isn't experiencing it at home, its not likely they're going to reflect that at school. And if a well meaning kid is surrounded by other kids spouting an alternative message, they're going to pick it up. In most cases, peers make more of an impression than an instructor.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Having someone in the group whose hobby is looking down on the rest of the group isn't exactly a recipe for intelligent conversation either.

I am very happy not to be part of it at all. Please never incite me to such a conversation.

I consider it is rude to make the only person that does not drink to be the DD and then smash yourself to be a drooling zombie, all in the name of fun and entertainment and feel you are offering intelligent conversations.

Regards Tony

 

[JustGeorge]

I consider it is rude to make the only person that does not drink to be the DD and then smash yourself to be a drooling zombie, all in the name of fun and entertainment and feel you are offering intelligent conversations.

Regards Tony

Either way, Tony, thanks for being there to drive, regardless.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Banning alcohol for others is important to your spiritual development? How does banning it for others, make you more spiritual?

I get abstaining from it for your own development may be important, but I don't get how imposing your practices on others helps you grow spiritually? If anything, that only serves to make the ego stronger. Spirituality has to come from a place of one's own intentions for themselves, not their intentions to control others lives. Does God ever force his will upon the world, or is it all invitation only? Do you think force is God's way, or is invitation?

Have I not made it clear that it has to be a personal choice?

The OP was that Abolition did not work, so what would it take?

I offered my view that it may come about in the future through peoples choices.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To use your analogy properly, banning all uses of alcohol would be like eliminating all uses of nuclear technology. All of it.

Not just nuclear bombs, but also nuclear power and radiation for cancer treatment.

Just getting rid of nuclear bombs would be akin to advocating for responsible consumption of alcohol... i.e. the opposite of what you're arguing for.

The Metephor was not anything to do with banning alcohol.

Regards Tony

 

[England my lionheart]

This OP has made it obvious that there is not too many thinking about Abolition, so that has confirmed that for some time in the future it will not happen, so education is really the only way.

Education is indeed the path to a better virtuous and moral humanity for sure.

I wonder how much support will be found to educate children that the best path is not to take drugs and alcohol! I would guess that the mindset of those that teach would have to change first.

Regards Tony

Far better to teach them how to swim long distances imo

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not going to happen.

If you have the ingredients for bread, you can make alcohol.

If you have fruit - any fruit - you can make alcohol.

It appears that people will indeed still consume a poison for their body, no matter how bad it gets, all for the sake of liberty.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I didn't know that I had a negative reaction to eating peanuts until after I ate a peanut. Does that mean EVERYONE should be prohibited from consuming peanuts? Or does it mean that I now have a personal responsibility to avoid eating peanuts in the future?

It would be their choice, I see the OP said prohibition did not work, so what would it take?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It should be allowed for adults in a free society.

I am a drinker and for me, it is an overall benefit to my life and happiness.

OK, so we have establish it is a free will choice and that it can not be prohibited.

So what will it take to stop its abuse, for 1000 of years it has been abused, costing many lives and effecting many families and communities costing billions of dollars a year to the Nation's as a whole.

That is what the OP is about.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Public education generally teaches this. My sons have done time in both 'good' schools, and 'bad' schools, and the teachings regarding this were not neglected in any of the settings.

What did vary, however, was the other kids. A teacher can preach kindness and tolerance until they're blue in the face, but if the student isn't experiencing it at home, its not likely they're going to reflect that at school. And if a well meaning kid is surrounded by other kids spouting an alternative message, they're going to pick it up. In most cases, peers make more of an impression than an instructor.

That also depends on the year, not only the school. We had some Grade 5s come back to school at noon somewhat drunk one year. One kid got into his Dad's cabinet, and they shared at least one bottle of wine. But although they all got in trouble, we mostly thought it was part of growing up. Curiousity is natural.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not see the Baha'i Faith will impose its Laws on anyone that does not choose to be a Baha'i. At some time in the future the law for the Baha'i will have some detail added.

I am more inclined to think that is will be the Governments of the World that will decide upon these issues.

Regards Tony

Well, the banning of pot didn't work either. Now it is becoming more and more legal. So why would a non-religious government ban alcohol? Probably a high percentage of them drink. We even have one Supreme Court justice that said he likes beer. But how will the Baha'i Faith ever enforce such a law? And if it doesn't, then why would someone who does drink in moderation give it up? But, will they admit they drink to their Baha'i community? And if they don't, then all the law is accomplishing is to cause people to drink in secret.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You can avoid if it you like, but don’t expect everyone to agree, including me. Alcoholic drinks are part of civilised culture and a great pleasure to many. I have 150 bottles of wine in my cellar and they give great enjoyment to my dinner guests, with no ill effects. We are not all winos, you know.

Then as it is your choice, enjoy.

Regards Tony