Abolition of Alcohol

[Windwalker]

Before arguing that things you disapprove of should be banned (edit: or that their sale should be prohibited), maybe ask yourself if there's anything you value that others may disapprove of.

Yes, like their own religion. Should that be banned because some see the Baha'i faith itself to be dangerous to society? I think they have experienced that historically already, so it's curious having suffered that themselves, that they would want to do that to others.

Make you wonder. Aren't they just wanting to do to others, the bad things that have been done to them? That's not healing. That's just perpetuating the violence and injustice. Bullies make bullies, I suppose. I think the golden rule should apply instead, "Do unto other what you have them do unto you." Do they want others to ban them? Then don't suggest banning choices for others.

 

[QuestioningMind]

How do they know beforehand before they start they can do this?

They don't. But I have a negative reaction to consuming peanuts. Does that mean people who don't have a negative reaction should be prohibited from eating peanuts? I don't think so. I think it's MY responsibility to make sure that I avoid eating peanuts.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Some of the things can be banned, some things just cannot.
Indeed, there should be a control on restaurants and food sellers to ban anything that is scientifically proven to be harmful. If someone decides to make fries and hot dogs at home and consume it is their own business. If someone wants to make wine at home for themselves, it is their own business.

But to produce and sell to others is best to be banned in my opinion.

Drugs and pornography are two other things that needs to be banned. These are just harmful to people and society.

And who will get to decide on what should be banned and what should not? A "Committee of the Pure," perhaps? The Taliban, when they ruled Afghanistan, didn't like music, dancing or female flesh -- and banned them all. For the longest time, the Saudis thought that obviously women should be banned from driving.

I promise you -- once you've got your way, and some things get to be banned by some "governing body," you will soon come to hate it. Because it will eventually ban something that you crave. It is always that way when committees of the pure at heart get their way.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I wonder how many people thought they were responsible users until one day they found out that had passed that point!

No person knows how they will react to the use of alcohol and what a safe level will be for them. No one knows what they will do one life throws a few curve balls at them.

That is worth considering.

Regards Tony

I didn't know that I had a negative reaction to eating peanuts until after I ate a peanut. Does that mean EVERYONE should be prohibited from consuming peanuts? Or does it mean that I now have a personal responsibility to avoid eating peanuts in the future?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I wonder why we can't seem to remember what prohibition did in the United States and Canada? Even around the world, prohibition has been tried and then abandoned (except in a few Muslim countries, most notably Saudi Arabia).

Almost everywhere tried, it led to people moving to underground (illegal) markets to obtain what they wanted. This, naturally, led to criminal organizations, crimes waves and killing to maintain control over lucrative territories. What fun!

It is exactly this that has led Canada, and many states in the US, and some nations in Europe, to lift bans on cannabis and other "softer" drugs. What's the point of banning something that people will find a way to get anyway -- inevitably leading to crime, over-crowded prisons, and other poor outcomes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, like their own religion. Should that be banned because some see the Baha'i faith itself to be dangerous to society? I think they have experienced that historically already, so it's curious having suffered that themselves, that they would want to do that to others.

Make you wonder. Aren't they just wanting to do to others, the bad things that have been done to them? That's not healing. That's just perpetuating the violence and injustice. Bullies make bullies, I suppose. I think the golden rule should apply instead, "Do unto other what you have them do unto you." Do they want others to ban them? Then don't suggest banning choices for others.

I find it especially interesting because the arguments against alcohol are almost the same as the arguments against religion:

- there's a mixture of moderate use (mostly benign) and extreme use (often very harmful).

- you can't have just the moderate use. If you have any use at all, you'll get some amount of extreme use.

- social acceptance of moderate use gives cover to extreme use.

... so when I hear religious people argue for prohibition of alcohol, I take this as a sign of a severe lack of self-reflection.

 

[George-ananda]

What is your stance, what is your view?

It should be allowed for adults in a free society.

I am a drinker and for me, it is an overall benefit to my life and happiness.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And who will get to decide on what should be banned and what should not? A "Committee of the Pure," perhaps? The Taliban, when they ruled Afghanistan, didn't like music, dancing or female flesh -- and banned them all. For the longest time, the Saudis thought that obviously women should be banned from driving.

I promise you -- once you've got your way, and some things get to be banned by some "governing body," you will soon come to hate it. Because it will eventually ban something that you crave. It is always that way when committees of the pure at heart get their way.

Agreed, it is challenging. But it can be based on scientific evidence, not based on religious beliefs.
For example, right now, drinking and driving is banned, based on statistics that it is harmful.

Drugs or pornography is known by psychologists to be harmful to mental health or family. Whatever is based in science.

 

[JustGeorge]

Drugs and pornography are two other things that needs to be banned. These are just harmful to people and society.

Drugs are banned where I live. Plenty of people still use them. All its done is give us a healthy gang system to help 'regulate' this illegal trade..

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Agreed, it is challenging. But it can be based on scientific evidence, not based on religious beliefs.
For example, right now, drinking and driving is banned, based on statistics that it is harmful.

Drugs or pornography is known by psychologists to be harmful to mental health or family. Whatever is based in science.

I find it amazing that we arguing in this thread to prevent people from using what they'd like even it's not good for them -- and in another thread why we must NOT mandate that people take that they don't want, even if it is proven to be good for them.

Aren't we humans a confused bunch?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Drugs are banned where I live. Plenty of people still use them. All its done is give us a healthy gang system to help 'regulate' this illegal trade..

Well, legal system and police needs to deal with it, at that point. Sometimes there could be corruption in the system. I don't know about your location.
Generally we also need an education system. A spiritual, ethical system to change things fundamentally. But banning and legal system is also needed, and helps alot in my opinion.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well, legal system and police needs to deal with it, at that point. Sometimes there could be corruption in the system. I don't know about your location.
Generally we also need an education system. A spiritual, ethical system to change things fundamentally. But banning and legal system is also needed, and helps alot in my opinion.

And now you want to force a "spiritual, ethical system" on the rest of us? I think not! I do not appreciate ANYBODY telling me how I ought to live MY life.

 

[Vinayaka]

Agreed, it is challenging. But it can be based on scientific evidence, not based on religious beliefs.
For example, right now, drinking and driving is banned, based on statistics that it is harmful.

Drugs or pornography is known by psychologists to be harmful to mental health or family. Whatever is based in science.

Drugs? Lots are banned already, unless you don't understand what the word 'illegal' means. Alcohol is a drug. So are nicotine, aspirin, penicillen, fentanyl, heroin, morphine, and another 1000 or so chemicals and natural substances. You want them all banned? Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[JustGeorge]

Well, legal system and police needs to deal with it, at that point. Sometimes there could be corruption in the system. I don't know about your location.

They do, to the best of their ability. But the problem is extensive and not confined to just here. I know a lot of gangs here work with the gangs in Chicago(I'm in Waterloo, Iowa, but the way).

Also, our police force is already exhausted... with all the other things going on(you know, human trafficking, armed robbery, murder, rape, and assault, not to mention all the petty crimes they're still required to deal with) they're kind of down on time...

But still, they do try. We see drug busts at least a few times a year. But still the trade continues, without much of a dent put into the system.

Generally we also need an education system. A spiritual, ethical system to change things fundamentally.

Education is fine and dandy, but you can't(or shouldn't) use education as the means to push a spiritual or religious agenda(unless the school has been set up for that purpose and those who participate consent to participate). How would you feel if someone tried to educate your children in a religion or outlook that you didn't approve of?

 

[exchemist]

I can attest that a world without alcohol would be heaven on earth. I was at one time a person that thought alcohol could give a good time, yet our body also warns us differently, but then we ignore what our body tells us and then pride ourselves on the size of the hangover, or feed more alcohol to feel a bit better.

Now I will heave the sarcastic replies with passion as where I live alcohol has destroyed a town.

1200 odd people and 3 pubs thriving and the vast majority of that government supplied money, is being flushed down a toilet.

Alcoholism, dialysis, diabetes, partner abuse, all night parties feeding carnal desires a plauge in my town.

Wow that is so much fun, let's go have another drink. Meanwhile nurses and doctors get no rest.

I think that offers all that I see alcohol is, there is no place for it in life.

You will note that I now have a solid stance on this topic, but that is my opinion and my choice.

Regards Tony

You can avoid if it you like, but don’t expect everyone to agree, including me. Alcoholic drinks are part of civilised culture and a great pleasure to many. I have 150 bottles of wine in my cellar and they give great enjoyment to my dinner guests, with no ill effects. We are not all winos, you know.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

They do, to the best of their ability. But the problem is extensive and not confined to just here. I know a lot of gangs here work with the gangs in Chicago(I'm in Waterloo, Iowa, but the way).

Also, our police force is already exhausted... with all the other things going on(you know, human trafficking, armed robbery, murder, rape, and assault, not to mention all the petty crimes they're still required to deal with) they're kind of down on time...

But still, they do try. We see drug busts at least a few times a year. But still the trade continues, without much of a dent put into the system.



Education is fine and dandy, but you can't(or shouldn't) use education as the means to push a spiritual or religious agenda(unless the school has been set up for that purpose and those who participate consent to participate). How would you feel if someone tried to educate your children in a religion or outlook that you didn't approve of?

By spiritual and ethical education, I don't mean to believe in a Faith or Religion as being divine, but a system of education, which could use ingredients from various beliefs, Religion or non-religious, as long as those ingredients provide ways for betterment of the world and human beings.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And now you want to force a "spiritual, ethical system" on the rest of us? I think not! I do not appreciate ANYBODY telling me how I ought to live MY life.

There shouldn't be any forcing. But in my opinion we need a more emphasis on ethics and human values in out system, than what we have right now. That should be the basis, the foundation that everything else such as economy, society, work, and everything else be built upon.

 

[JustGeorge]

By spiritual and ethical education, I don't mean to believe in a Faith or Religion as being divine, but a system of education, which could use ingredients from various beliefs, Religion or non-religious, as long as those ingredients provide ways for betterment of the world and human beings.

You'll have to give me examples of what you mean for me to understand how this differs from what's currently being taught. I feel they already load the curriculum full of things like 'global citizenship, anti bullying, and personal responsibility'(though I'll be honest, a lot of its more talk than anything).

Some districts or schools do better with it than others, but that's generally how things go.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So what is a better choice for the whole, if we want to help people that do have issues? Would we not have to be sober to offer to another that they need to be?

I have helped people on the issue. Obviously sober while I was, but I was recommended for recovery coaching pretty quick at my case management job.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, legal system and police needs to deal with it, at that point. Sometimes there could be corruption in the system. I don't know about your location.
Generally we also need an education system. A spiritual, ethical system to change things fundamentally. But banning and legal system is also needed, and helps alot in my opinion.

What is it with our Baha'i members suggesting things without thinking their suggestions through?

Your religion is a tiny minority in ebery country in the world. It's actively oppressed in a number of countries. Do you think that if a "spiritual, ethical system" were imposed on the society of any country, things would work out well for you?

Your belief system won't be the foundation of any such system.