Abolition of Alcohol

[TransmutingSoul]

What kind of education would you want? A compulsory course on Kitab-i-Aqdas?

These type of replies keep ignoring the advice that the decisions will not be made by Baha'i, but by a union of nations, by a united people.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

As can many things, food, cars, skateboards and a million other things. Do we stay at home and do nothing? I'm over weight, let's ban food.

Banning food is not an option.

 

[Truthseeker]

The vast majority of people stop there. Abuse is far, far, far less common than social or occasional drinking. If we are going to educate, then let's not pretend that billions of people don't drink with no negative consequence. Alcohol in moderation won't hurt you. But alcohol abuse will.

• According to the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) survey, in 2018, more than half of the US adult population drank alcohol in the past 30 days. About 16% of the adult population reported binge drinking, and 7% reported heavy drinking.

• According to the ARDI application, during 2011–2015, excessive alcohol use was responsible for an annual average of 95,000 deaths and 2.8 million years of potential life lost. Almost half of these deaths and three-quarters of the years of potential life lost were due to binge drinking.

• Alcohol use poses additional problems for underage drinkers and pregnant women.

Data on Excessive Drinking | CDC

Fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (FASDs) are a group of conditions that can occur in a person whose mother drank alcohol during pregnancy. FASDs are preventable if a woman does not drink alcohol during pregnancy.

Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders (FASDs)

The 2019 Youth Risk Behavior Survey5,6 found that among high school students, during the past 30 days

• 29% drank alcohol.
• 14% binge drank.
• 5% of drivers drove after drinking alcohol.
• 17% rode with a driver who had been drinking alcohol.

Underage Drinking | CDC

You decide whether this is worth not educating on the risks of drinking. I'm not advocating anything but presenting these facts to kids.

I have an opinion that alcohol is not needed, that it a substitute for spirituality, but I don't think the world is set up to make that a maxim that a teacher would present.

 

[oldbadger]

Such as?

Hi SC.....
Such as.... most of them, imo.

What happens now is that folks can get hold of drugs.
Not much difference after the repeals, I think, but police wouldn't have such an easy time with 'stop/search', less paper pushing, less home invasions, more interest in real crime etc.

And the gangs would reduce; no point if the local shop sells grass (whatever), and our governments would reap the tax which could fund our hospitals much more easily than now.

Yeah..... repeal the drug laws.

 

[oldbadger]

Banning food is not an option.

Nor is banning alcohol. Crazy idea.

 

[John53]

Banning food is not an option.

Fair enough. Just junk food then?

 

[Truthseeker]

That's a lot of things in life. And we can't pad all of society from everything that is potentially harmful to some.
I do agree we need to promote responsible consumption, and shift society's collective towards discouraging abuse instead of acceptance and encouragement of occasional and periodical abuse.
But this doesn't mean we need to abstain. I had a small glass of Irish cream whiskey today. Big whoop. If we encouraged more drinking like that (and it must be responsibly and limited due to my meds) and less New Years and birthday abuse we'd be in way better shape.
As many others have pointed out, if we address the reasons people turn to substances enough to cause such a disorder we'll be significantly better off, especially if we collectively acknowledge and agree addiction and dependency are medical crises, not a crime to be punished and destroy lives.
We also need honest conversations about drugs. Such as doing away with "drug and alchohol." Alcohol is a drug. We also must be honest that even so-called street drugs have their place in medical treatment, have been frequently used in religious traditions, and has helped fuel much of our greatest works of art. But street drugs can be very dangerous and deadly as dangerous substances like fentanyl may be added. This is why we must legalize all drugs. It was not different with alcohol prohibition making alcohol more dangerous due to dangerous additives.
But it also clears all barriers to addiction treatment, something we very desperately and sorely need. It takes a lot of money from gangs and cartels. It keeps people out of jail and gets them the help they need.
Drugs are drugs. Alcohol is no different from pot is no different from amphetamines is no different from MDMA.

When I say it should be taught in schools I mean the statistics of the possibility of abuse should be presented to the kids as I presented to another post. I don't to present that all over again.

Addressing the reasons people turn to substance abuse is another good idea. Thank you!

Drugs, if they are used in medical treatment are fine, but not outside of that. I don't know the context of using drugs in religious ceremonies, but that may be dangerous. I honestly don't know. I don't think legalizing all drugs would be appropriate, I think maybe marijuana but that's it. The drug dealers should be treated as criminals, but the people addicted are different, they need treatment. The person addicted should have a light penalty or none at all. I'm not an expert in this field, so take all this with a grain of salt.

Pot or Marajuana is about the same as alcohol, as far as I'm aware in addiction, maybe less chance for addiction.

According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), when taken correctly, prescription stimulants like dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine), dextroamphetamine/amphetamine combination product (Adderall), and methylphenidate (Ritalin, Concerta) increase your alertness, attention, and energy. But in the 2019 National Survey of Drug Use and Health, 9.7 million Americans said they misused stimulants in the last year. Another two million people admitted misuse of methamphetamine, a powerful and highly addictive stimulant.

I've taken such amphetamines' myself in the past for ADD. But they should not be taken on the street not prescribed by a Psychiatrist. In that case you are ignorant of the dose you should take and under what conditions.

MDMA - Wikipedia

See this for possible problems. I would never use it, as it has no medical use right now.

 

[Truthseeker]

I think we need to approach it differently than "its unhealthy" or "it causes problems". Few are moved by this argument, especially the young. I think it would do good to take an honest survey of why people took their first drink, and then tackle the scenarios around that. Take away the triggers, so to speak.

I think I know what you're saying. Know why people abuse alcohol. That's been suggested elsewhere to me, and I think, it's a good idea.

 

[Truthseeker]

Prohibition however is the opposite of education. It's forcing one groups beliefs and values upon others for something that can otherwise be largely used responsibly by them. That's puritanical and self-righteous to ban it for all, and no one wants anyone else's religious belief pushed down their throats by the arm of the law. There is a reason we separate church and state.

I didn't say anything there about prohibition. Just education of what the risks are for destroying your life. Also it has been suggested, not by me initially, that we need to look a underlying causes why some people abuse alcohol or drugs.

 

[Truthseeker]

They don't. But I have a negative reaction to consuming peanuts. Does that mean people who don't have a negative reaction should be prohibited from eating peanuts? I don't think so. I think it's MY responsibility to make sure that I avoid eating peanuts.

The number of people allergic to peanuts is small. I never said anything about prohibiting drinking alcohol, just that that they should be informed of the risks of drinking alcohol. Another idea is to look at reasons alcohol is sometimes abused.

 

[Truthseeker]

Nor is banning alcohol. Crazy idea.

I never advocated banning alcohol.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

See this for possible problems. I would never use it, as it has no medical use right now.

PTSD.
MDMA-assisted therapy for severe PTSD: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled phase 3 study | Nature Medicine

Here, we demonstrate that three doses of MDMA given in conjunction with manualized therapy over the course of 18 weeks results in a significant and robust attenuation of PTSD symptoms and functional impairment as assessed using the CAPS-5 and SDS, respectively. MDMA also significantly mitigated depressive symptoms as assessed using the BDI-II. Of note, MDMA did not increase the occurrence of suicidality during the study.

I don't know the context of using drugs in religious ceremonies, but that may be dangerous. I honestly don't know.

It's a very old and widespread use, especially psilocybin mushrooms (as they grow basically about everywhere).

I don't think legalizing all drugs would be appropriate

Portugal decriminalized all drugs and drugs usage went down.
I'd say that's a very appropriate step if that's what we can expect.

 

[Aupmanyav]

These type of replies keep ignoring the advice that the decisions will not be made by Baha'i, but by a union of nations, by a united people.

We have just the right proverb in Hindi for this kind of thing: "na nau man tel hogā, na Rādhā nāchegi".
When asked to dance, the dancer put a condition that the dance-floor be washed with 360 kilgrams of oil. Those who made the request will not provide the required quantity of oil. Therefore, the dancer will not dance.
So, since there is no possibility of such a union of nations, therefore, the Bahai pipe-dreams will remain what they are, pipe-dreams.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, since there is no possibility of such a union of nations, therefore, the Bahai pipe-dreams will remain what they are, pipe-dreams.

I wish you well and happy, all the while, I dream for the unity of humanity.

At least it is a good drug in that pipe, no need to abolish that.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have an opinion that alcohol is not needed, that it a substitute for spirituality, but I don't think the world is set up to make that a maxim that a teacher would present.

Sure, alcohol is not needed for spirituality unless the person is a follower of left-hand path in Hinduism (Tantra, Aghor).
However, occasional binge drinking does not cause any problem. It happens once in a while and not every day. I too have done it when it was safe to do so. You missed this line in the CDC report - "Most people who binge drink do not have a severe alcohol use disorder." Binge Drinking is a serious but preventable problem of excessive alcohol use | CDC

I wish you well and happy, all the while, I dream for the unity of humanity.

Unity of humanity under the Bahai banner. Most people will have problems with that. Don't dream all the time. Realize reality.

 

[Secret Chief]

Yes -- have you considered the possibility that all the friction from all that sex is what's really causing the ice caps to melt?

Both could be addressed, was my point.

 

[Secret Chief]

Abolition of Alcohol

Exactly. You think anyone should be able to take anything, and then deal with the mess afterwards.

 

[Secret Chief]

Hi SC.....
Such as.... most of them, imo.

What happens now is that folks can get hold of drugs.
Not much difference after the repeals, I think, but police wouldn't have such an easy time with 'stop/search', less paper pushing, less home invasions, more interest in real crime etc.

And the gangs would reduce; no point if the local shop sells grass (whatever), and our governments would reap the tax which could fund our hospitals much more easily than now.

Yeah..... repeal the drug laws.

Weed isn't the big problem though. I mean monkey dust, heroin, spice etc. Buying it legally is irrelevant to the hazards to the user (and those they come into unfortunate contact with). A zombie standing on a rootop declaring he can fly has to be dealt with by the police. Then he jumps off and ends up in an NHS hospital bed. (This was a typical, recent local event). That would be all different if the user had bought the drug legally wouldn't it; not. Our hospitals require funding to deal with the consequences of drug use. (And anyway the NHS could be funded adequately already but isn't for political reasons, to drive its privatisation).
Local shops selling such drugs would be a real boon wouldn't it. My local shops are already struggling because people stay out of the town altogether. Why do they do that? Because of all the druggies.

Yeah.... great idea.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I don't think mind altering drugs should be freely available in your local corner shop. But all the evidence suggests that prohibition doesn't work. So cannabis, certainly, should be legalised and it's sale properly regulated. I'd go further, and decriminalise opiates and cocaine, just to take distribution out of the hands of criminals. I don't advocate making them freely available, but it may make sense to prescribe opiates rather than methadone, for example, to heroin addicts. Our current model, in the UK anyway, criminalises addiction, which I believe should be seen as a medical not criminal issue.

I'd class alcohol as causing just as much harm as cocaine and opiates btw, to a minority of it's habitual users, and their families. For that reason I'd like to see better education about it's dangers, and a ban on advertising such as we see with tobacco. But not prohibition.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't think mind altering drugs should be freely available in your local corner shop. But all the evidence suggests that prohibition doesn't work. So cannabis, certainly, should be legalised and it's sale properly regulated. I'd go further, and decriminalise opiates and cocaine, just to take distribution out of the hands of criminals. I don't advocate making them freely available, but it may make sense to prescribe opiates rather than methadone, for example, to heroin addicts. Our current model, in the UK anyway, criminalises addiction, which I believe should be seen as a medical not criminal issue.

I'd class alcohol as causing just as much harm as cocaine and opiates btw, to a minority of it's habitual users, and their families. For that reason I'd like to see better education about it's dangers, and a ban on advertising such as we see with tobacco. But not prohibition.

Maybe in the future we can consider different approaches.

We will have to let it all play out and see what happens.

Regards Tony