Abortion: can a mother hurt the embryo?

[leroy]

Really? You don't even know what you are debating about?

I will answer if you openly admit that you have no idea what you are debating about.

I think I have supported all my positive claims (therefore meeting the burden proof) but if you think I made a claim that I haven’t support it, please let me know what claim is it

 

[leroy]

And countless Christians use those services. Most are probably not being hypocrites because even among Christians, and especially younger Christians, prochoice appears to be their position.

Well íll say they are wrong, or perhaps just ignorant about how this clinics work.

A few years ago I went to a fertility clinic because my wife an I where unable to get pregnant,

They simply told us, “congratulations you can start the process of fertilization tomorrow all you have to do is pay $200,000 Mexican pesos ($10,000 USD) luckily I was unable to afford that amount of money, but nobody told me that they were going to create 3-6 embryos pick the best, and kill the other 2-5 embryos

My point is that maybe some pro choice are ignorant on what this clinics do.

 

[leroy]

I've answered all these questions in the post you replied to. My point is that your story about the Joker does not line up with the real life abortion situation.

I won't be saying it all over again.

does not line up with the real life abortion situation

well why not?

 

[leroy]

I provided it. You just didn't understand it. Or chose to ignore it.

I answered it. You just didn't understand it. Or chose to ignore it.

The issue of "foetus personhood" is irrelevant to the issue of abortion, so your question is meaningless. It is merely an issue that you are obsessed with.

Think of it this way - the foetus is not "a person" so why are you anti-abortion?

If the fetus weren’t a person,. I would be anti-abortion

You are avoiding an answer

If the fetus where a person would you be pro abortion?

 

[KWED]

I think I have supported all my positive claims (therefore meeting the burden proof) but if you think I made a claim that I haven’t support it, please let me know what claim is it

You repeatedly claim that a fertilised egg or a blastocyst or an early-stage foetus is "a person".
You have repeatedly been asked to support this claim with something more than just repeating the initial assertion.
You repeatedly fail to do so.

Also, what does "a person" mean in this context, and why does it mean that abortion is unacceptable under any circumstances?
Remember that you have already admitted that you would abort twin embryos to save a single 3 year old, thus demonstrating that you assign different value to different developmental stages.

 

[KWED]

Well íll say they are wrong,

And that what your argument keeps boiling down to - your opinion.

A few years ago I went to a fertility clinic because my wife an I where unable to get pregnant,

They simply told us, “congratulations you can start the process of fertilization tomorrow all you have to do is pay $200,000 Mexican pesos ($10,000 USD) luckily I was unable to afford that amount of money, but nobody told me that they were going to create 3-6 embryos pick the best, and kill the other 2-5 embryos

My point is that maybe some pro choice are ignorant on what this clinics do.

Why are you using fertility clinics when there are thousands of young children in care needing adoption?
Oh that's right, your "concern" for the "child" stops at birth. My bad.

 

[KWED]

If the fetus weren’t a person,. I would be anti-abortion

Why?

You are avoiding an answer
If the fetus where a person would you be pro abortion?

No, I provided an answer. The fact that it is not the answer you were hoping for is irrelevant.

 

[leroy]

I have literally no idea what point you thought you were making there.

That you don’t care about 3yo ether, you prefer to waste you money in useless coffee rather than helping a child that is starving to death……… but ofcouse this doesn’t invalidate any of your arguments

The only point that I am making is that the fact that I personally don’t help 3yo children has no bearing on weather if the argument is valid or not

But you haven't presented any "argument" against abortion.

My argumenens are

1 it´s wrong to kill innocent persons,

2 abortion implies killing an innocent person.

I explained what I mean by a person:

Person: Any Human that has current or potential consciousness and other mental states,


The embryo corresponds to that definition.

So which premise do you deny so that we can focus on the points of disagreement?

If my auntie had bollocks, would I still call her auntie?

Why do you answer the question with sarcasm?

Some pro choicers say that abortion would be ok even if the fetus is a person, others say that abortion wouldn’t be ok if the fetus where a person.

So which one are you?.......why keep your answers vague and ambiguous? Why not answering directly?

I am guessing that your regime would also prohibit free and easy access to contraception as well. And probably prohibit meaningful sex education in schools.

No I am not against that stuff

 

[leroy]

And that what your argument keeps boiling down to - your opinion.

Why are you using fertility clinics when there are thousands of young children in care needing adoption?
Oh that's right, your "concern" for the "child" stops at birth. My bad.

Luckily my own personal actions are irrelevant // none of the arguments against abortion that have been presented are dependent on my own personal actions.

 

[We Never Know]

That is pretty subjective. To some it is at the moment of conception. To others it is with sentience or survivability. Some think it is at birth.
The law and medical ethics consider elective abortion acceptable before 24 weeks.
Take your pick.

Yes I know that others vary on their answers. Whats your answer?

"The law and medical ethics consider elective abortion acceptable before 24 weeks."

So is it considered a person after 24 weeks?

 

[leroy]

leroy said: ↑
If the fetus weren’t a person,. I would be anti-abortion

Why?

I meant wouldn’t

If the fetus weren’t a person a I wouldn’t be against abortion

Why, because the whole arguments depends on the claim that the fetus is a person, if the claim is falsified the whole argument collapses.

No, I provided an answer. The fact that it is not the answer you were hoping for is irrelevant.

Well it´s relevant if you want to have a meaningful discussion and learn from people with different views than you.

If your view is not clear for me, why can´t you answer clearly and directly so that I can understand?

 

[leroy]

Yes I know that others vary on their answers. Whats your answer?

"The law and medical ethics consider elective abortion acceptable before 24 weeks."

So is it considered a person after 24 weeks?

Good luck with that…………..I have been asking @KWED for weeks and he hasn’t responded to me

 

[leroy]

Your ridiculous hypothetical didn't involve early-stage abortion, so it is irrelevant.

The analogy is relevant for those who claim that abortion wouldn’t be wrong even if the fetus/embryo where a person.

Is that you?

 

[leroy]

Oh dear god. Let's try again. I'll type really slowly.

Elective, early-stage abortion is considered both legal and medically ethical.
It is both illegal and medically unethical to kill "a person".
Therefore an early-stage foetus is not medically or legally "a person".
QED.

Now, which parts of that are you having trouble understanding? It it the words? The concepts?

Considered by whom?

 

[KWED]

That you don’t care about 3yo ether, you prefer to waste you money in useless coffee rather than helping a child that is starving to death

1. I don't drink coffee.
2. I have several direct debits to various relief charities.
3. I am not campaigning to introduce more children into the care system like you are.

but ofcouse this doesn’t invalidate any of your arguments

But your lack of concern for 3 year old children does invalidate your argument that all children must be valued and treated the same, regardless of developmental stage.

My argumenens are
1 it´s wrong to kill innocent persons,

My position is that it is wrong to kill anyone who isn't voluntarily engaged in armed conflict.

2 abortion implies killing an innocent person.

No it doesn't. This is one of the places where your entire argument collapses.
1. You have not shown that a early-stage foetus is a person.
2. You have not shown that even if an early-stage foetus was "a person" that it therefore has more value and rights than the woman it is growing in..

I explained what I mean by a person:
Person: Any Human that has current or potential consciousness and other mental states,

I don't recognise that as the definition of a person, and it spent correspond to any in any dictionary or medical or legal test book.
You have obviously constructed your own definition to cover every possibility you want.
Well, here's my definition of "a person" - a human after it has been born.
See how easy that was?

The legal and medical definition is something like - foetus that has gained sentience and is capable of surviving outside the womb.

The embryo corresponds to that definition.

Doesn't correspond[pond to my definition, so we are back to square one. I know, let's compromise. I guess we will just have to accept the medico-legal position, won't we?

Why do you answer the question with sarcasm?

Because sarcasm, satire, etc is often the best way to get a point across. You asked a meaningless question, so I responded in kind.

Some pro choicers say that abortion would be ok even if the fetus is a person, others say that abortion wouldn’t be ok if the fetus where a person

Do they? How do they define "person"? And in what circumstances do they say it would be acceptable?

So which one are you?.......why keep your answers vague and ambiguous? Why not answering directly?

I am neither, as I have repeatedly explained.

I'll try and demonstrate your problem here...
Some anti-abortionists are misogynist bigots. Others are just plain stupid. So which one are you?

No I am not against that stuff

So you are happy for schools to provide comprehensive sex education and free condoms. Well, at least that will reduce the incidence of unwanted pregnancies.

 

[KWED]

The analogy is relevant for those who claim that abortion wouldn’t be wrong even if the fetus/embryo where a person.

No it isn't, because it doesn't relate to an early-stage foetus and a woman with an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[KWED]

Considered by whom?

Oh, **** me. The law and medical ethics. This has been explained to you dozens of times now.
I can't believe that anyone capable of operating a computer or smartphone is that stupid, so dishonesty is the only explanation.

 

[leroy]

So you admit that a 5 year old child is of more "value" and deserves more consideration than an early-stage foetus.

You are dealing with my own personal and subjective feelings and opinions, ofcourse I would pick my 3yo daughter over a fetus……….. but that is because I have a personal and stronger bond with her than with a fetus, but it doesn’t follow that objectively one has more value than the other …

I would also pick my pet over a 3yo Stranger. But that doesn’t mean that objectivley a Dog is worth more than a human,

But as you said earlier, my opinions are irrelevant; none of the argument s against abortion is dependent on my own personal opinions, or feelings or emotions. So what is your point?

Therefore a 20 year old pregnant woman is also of more "value" and deserves more consideration than an early-stage foetus.
.

Ok for sake of the argument

Yes the life of a 20yo woman is worth more than a fetus……..so what? Nobody is saying that we most kill the 20yo woman and save the fetus.

The claim is that the fetus is worth more than the woman’s desire to avoid 9 months of discomfort………… which would be true is the fetus is a person right?

 

[leroy]

No it isn't, because it doesn't relate to an early-stage foetus and a woman with an unwanted pregnancy.

The alternatives in the analogy are

1 press a button and suffer as much as an average pregnant woman

2 press an other button and kill an innocent person (your son)

If the fetus is a person, the analogy is apropiate,……………… you refuse to answer the question because keeping your view vague and ambiguous is part of your strategy ,

 

[leroy]

Oh, **** me. The law and medical ethics. This has been explained to you dozens of times now.
I can't believe that anyone capable of operating a computer or smartphone is that stupid, so dishonesty is the only explanation.

Funny how you can’t support your arguments.

you said that the medical consensus is that the fetus is not a person.

And your “evidence” is “because we have abortion clinics and doctors that perform abortions”

Do you why you are far from supporting your claims?

I was expecting something like a peer reviewed poll that shows that the majority of Doctors say that the fetus is not a person, or something like that.