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Abortion | Father's Rights

whereismynotecard

Treasure Hunter
Well, what's funny is that the law agrees with me. ;)

Post your argument concerning why a man should have rights over part of a woman's body?

Is there even a way to discern paternal dna during the gestation period?

Are there any laws you disagree with? Just because something is the law doesn't mean it's right. Laws are just things which some people believe is right. The law makers think that's "right" but that doesn't mean it is. (but like I said before, there is no right and wrong, as they are both just opinions)

The argument on why a man should have rights over part of a woman's body:
some people believe the baby inside the woman's body is an individual, separate person, and therefore believe the baby's father should be able to have some say over whether his baby is killed...
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Well, what's funny is that the law agrees with me. ;)

Post your argument concerning why a man should have rights over part of a woman's body?

Is there even a way to discern paternal dna during the gestation period?

I thought I did, and yes, you can discern paternaty during gestation if it is challenged. Just because the law is on your side doesn't mean your correct. It used to be legal to own slaves and beat your wife too.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Are there any laws you disagree with?
Of course. It's absurd to even say that.

My response was in regard to TreyofDiamonds saying my argument doesn't make sense. Obviously the Supreme Court thinks that argument makes sense....women have a right over their own bodies. It's very simple really.

The argument on why a man should have rights over part of a woman's body:
some people believe the baby inside the woman's body is an individual, separate person, and therefore believe the baby's father should be able to have some say over whether his baby is killed...
First you have to prove the paternity of the father. Then, it's possible you have a case that I'd love to see it go to court.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Just out of my own curiosity, I would be interested to know whether the responses are coming from men or women. Here's my (female) opinion:

1. Since human sexual reproduction doesn't give us any evidence of actual paternity (unless we invest in DNA testing), it is reasonable that the "father's" rights should be given less consideration than the mother's unless his paternity is certain.

2. The production of new life is not a 50/50 deal. The man makes a contribution that is so insignificant he could potentially father dozens of children without ever knowing about it. So, even if the paternity is certain, it is still reasonable to guarantee the lion's share of parental rights during pregnancy to the woman - at least until science finds some way to allow men to carry and give birth to a child.

3. As long as a fetus is incapable of life outside the womb, I consider it a part of a woman's body - not an individual with the rights and privileges of any born human, one of which is the right to be involved in ugly familial disputes over custody. As the father would essentially have to force the mother to carry an unwanted child to term and give birth to it against her will, and for the majority of this time it will be part of her body, and because giving birth to it causes irreversible changes to her body, her sovereignty over her own body still reasonably trumps the father's desire to have a child - until he can carry it for her.

4. As much as men might complain about child support, it is still almost always the mother who ends up raising the kids. Actually raising kids has a far more significant impact on a person's right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" (as they say) than simply writing a cheque (when you can). So, until society holds men equally accountable for the raising of children, it is reasonable to ensure the decision rests in the hands of the person who will bear the bulk of the responsibility for the child for the rest of its life (I'm not just talking about the first 18 years, here.)

For the above reasons, I think in all cases where the child could not survive outside the woman's body, it should be entirely her decision whether or not to carry it to term. After this point, if the mother's life is not in jeopardy, if the father makes a legally binding agreement to be entirely responsible for the child - both financially and physically - he should have the right to weigh in a legal challenge.

However, legal challenges (which is what I feel the word "rights" invoke) are not the only way for a father to influence a woman's decision whether or not to have an abortion. There's always talking, convincing, bribing, cajoling, coddling, proposing, philosophizing, romanticizing and a whole arsenal of persuasion tactics at a guy's disposal if he's knocked a gal up and she's gotten cold feet. If the gal you've knocked up hasn't asked for / doesn't care about your opinion on the matter, it's just not going to work. Non-consultation indicates that not only does she not want to have a child in general, she doesn't want to have a child with you in particular.
 

whereismynotecard

Treasure Hunter
I think it is important for everyone to understand why everyone else feels the way they do about this. I understand why pro-choice people feel the way they do about abortion. They don't think the baby is a baby yet. And I hope pro-choice people understand why I don't agree. I think the baby is it's own person, and I don't think either of its parents should get to kill it if they want to.
 

McBell

Unbound
If you are going to give the father rights in stopping an abortion, then would you not also have to give the father the same rights if he is the one wanting the abortion?
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
My response was in regard to TreyofDiamonds saying my argument doesn't make sense.

Ah, allow me to clarify. I said it didn't make sense to me. This is different than saying it doesn't make sense. I fully admit that perfectly sensable things make no sense at all to me. I still say it doesn't make sense to me but I'm not trying to speak for others.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Well... Trey of Diamonds just said you can prove the paternity.
Then my response is if a father wants in on the decisions, he should go to court. I believe in his right to challenge her decision. I don't disagree with that concept at all.

However, I think ultimately it should be the woman's decision about what she wants to do with her body.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
If you are going to give the father rights in stopping an abortion, then would you not also have to give the father the same rights if he is the one wanting the abortion?

No, only in not wanting to be involved in the child at all which he isn't allowed to do either. I father can be held accountable for child support after the birth.

I feel both parties should have the right to say I want no part of this child, none what so ever. The other party should have the right to assume total responsiblity for the child. I understand that the man can not physically take the child until after birth and the financial burden during that time should fall to him. But to say the man is nothing but an insignificant doner with no rights, feelings or say in the matter is an abuse of power. This is a matter in which the woman has all the power of God. She can destroy all that the man has helped to create and with that power comes the dangers of abuse.
 

whereismynotecard

Treasure Hunter
If you are going to give the father rights in stopping an abortion, then would you not also have to give the father the same rights if he is the one wanting the abortion?

Yep. As long as the mother agrees. The point is, if the mother wants and abortion and the father doesn't, it isn't fair to kill his baby. Similarly, if the father wants an abortion and the mother doesn't, it isn't fair to kill her baby. You see? Don't kill your babies unless both parents agree.

(I really don't care anymore if people get abortions. I know I wouldn't be able to do it and not feel really bad about it, but everyone can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect me.)
 

McBell

Unbound
No, only in not wanting to be involved in the child at all which he isn't allowed to do either. I father can be held accountable for child support after the birth.

I feel both parties should have the right to say I want no part of this child, none what so ever. The other party should have the right to assume total responsiblity for the child. I understand that the man can not physically take the child until after birth and the financial burden during that time should fall to him. But to say the man is nothing but an insignificant doner with no rights, feelings or say in the matter is an abuse of power. This is a matter in which the woman has all the power of God. She can destroy all that the man has helped to create and with that power comes the dangers of abuse.
So you want the male to have lopsided rights?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
These are basically my exact thoughts on the issue. I think there is a problem when it takes two people to create a life, and only one person to kill it.
The issue doesn't disappear when you get rid of abortion and it isn't just about the woman's body.

What happens once the baby is born if one parent wants to give the child up for adoption but the other wants to keep the child? The one who doesn't want the kid is still legally and financially responsible, right?
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
So you want the male to have lopsided rights?

Why is it lobsided? Just because the woman must sacrifice 9 months of comfort? Yes I know that it's a bit more than just comfort but to say 9 months of her life is just as inaccurate a statement. Still, she has to be pregnant for 9 months and then she's done, never look back and never have to worry about it.

And, lets be realistic, how many men are going to want to do this? Statistically it isn't going to be a high number. But for those precious few of us who take fatherhood very seriously, we deserve the right to choose.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
How very libertarian of you, and I respect that. Still disagree though. Yes, the government should protect the rights of the father and stop the mother from having an abortion if he wishes to take over raising the child on his own. The governments job is to protect the rights of it's citizens so if a father's rights are ever identified as such, they should protect them.

Trey, setting aside the whole "baby" issue for a moment -

Can you imagine how you would feel if any woman (wife, girlfriend, one night stand, mistress, friend with benefits, whatever) had the legal "right" to force you to put on 30 or 40 pounds, lactate for a couple of years (ruining your perky chest for life), spend all day ripping a hole in yourself that needs stitches to repair (and even then, things are never the same), be an emotional wreck for about a year, be unemployed, be financially dependent on others, and commit yourself to a couple decades of complete devotion to the well-being of somebody other than you? Is that what you think is "fair"? Why? Because she spent five minutes "getting to know you", you think she should have the legal right to dictate the course of the rest of your life to you and have you arrested if you disagree?

That just winds me up. :verymad:
 

whereismynotecard

Treasure Hunter
So you want the male to have lopsided rights?

Did you read what I said? Maybe you did, but here it is again. :D It can really go both ways.

Yep. As long as the mother agrees. The point is, if the mother wants and abortion and the father doesn't, it isn't fair to kill his baby. Similarly, if the father wants an abortion and the mother doesn't, it isn't fair to kill her baby. You see? Don't kill your babies unless both parents agree.

(I really don't care anymore if people get abortions. I know I wouldn't be able to do it and not feel really bad about it, but everyone can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect me.)
 
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