Abortion for rape or icsest teenager

[oldbadger]

In civilized countries Doctors dont think twice about this procedure.

Yes, they do. Please type 'doctors against....' and push search. Page after page of articles will be offered to you about doctors in civilised countries who are against abortions. Then you can try 'nurses against....'

Now place any doctor from a civilised country into Surinam and ask that doctor to perform an abortion. Just see whether they will dare to do it without express authority from a court.

Do you really want to help people or not?

Well, if he breaks the law about this he can be imprisoned for 4 years, and lose his licence, his income etc. I wonder if he has a family.

Because religious politics has no place in a real doctor's practice.

Would you have said that twenty years ago? Or thirty? Religion is the very basis of a religious person's life, surely? I am not religious, but I can perceive that as highly probable.

If your helping people there is no curse. Letting a rape victim suffer the fatherless pregnancy is not helping anyone but yourself.

There is a curse if he breaks Surinam law. The judge may well curse him as he is sentenced....?

There is a civlized thing to do and a barbaric thing to do. The call is yours alone.

Many westerners think abortion is barbaric. I am not against abortion up to English Law's timeframe of 25-26 weeks. But in Surinam he will need a court's decision about this.

 

[oldbadger]

As a christian, do you believe god want's you to follow rules or show compassion on this Earth?

Hi...... He has probably sworn some kind of Hippocratic Oath.
He knows that to carry out an abortion without the orders of a court is a criminal offence which will put him in prison for up to four years.
It's not his ultimate call....... it is a Judge's.

This should be put to the police, which may not have happened. Victims of incestual rape are often terrified about getting the relative into trouble..... crazy, but true.

 

[oldbadger]

I think you should recommend her to another Doctor, one who does not believe in curses. In fact I think you should recommend all of your patients go to a Doctor who does not believe in curses. That is what I would recommend.

Do you think Mr Mungra's first language is English? He might well be using the word 'curse' as we do, sometimes? I know women who complain of a monthly 'curse'. I could 'curse' when I'm late for something..... ?

I wouldn't take that too literally. But he'll be cursed if he breaks the law, all right.

Interestingly, if an RF member living in Surinam was to urge Mr Mungra to carry out an abortion without Court approval, that member would probably be committing a criminal offence under Surinamese law by 'inciting him to commit a crime'.

 

[outhouse]

Yes, they do. Please type 'doctors against....' and push search. Page after page of articles will be offered to you about doctors in civilised countries who are against abortions. Then you can try 'nurses against....' .

I dont care which backwards doctors are against it, here one can easily find a doctor who wont think twice about helping people in need of real help

Now place any doctor from a civilised country into Surinam and ask that doctor to perform an abortion. Just see whether they will dare to do it without express authority from a court.

Usually barbaric places work for money more so then principle or law.

Well, if he breaks the law about this he can be imprisoned for 4 years, and lose his licence, his income etc. I wonder if he has a family.

And I stated quite clearly it was his choice to do so as he wished, since we dont kow what circumstances he has.

Would you have said that twenty years ago? Or thirty? Religion is the very basis of a religious person's life, surely? I am not religious, but I can perceive that as highly probable.

Were talking about now, not the past.

There is a curse if he breaks Surinam law. The judge may well curse him as he is sentenced....?

Breaking a law is not a curse my friend

Many westerners think abortion is barbaric

And I think not helping victims is barbaric.

. But in Surinam he will need a court's decision about this

There is more to this then meets the eye.


If a real doctor has to come into a religious froum for medical advise, I dont trust him. Its a big red flag.

So I expressed my moral opinion freely.

 

[R mungra]

its a very sad and disturbing case, i feel sorry for you for having to make such a decision.....and i especially feel sorry for the child to ever have to go thru such a situation.

As a christian, you must do what your conscience tells you is right.

Your conscience is your guide. If you feel something is wrong, then you should not do it because God will judge us by how we respond to our inner voice.

As a doctor, surely you want to help the girl, but you also know that two lives are involved and that is what you have to deal with. Can you consciously destroy one life to improve another? Thats a difficult choice. I wish you all the best and hope you make the choice dictated by your conscience because in the end, you are the one who has to live with the decision you make.

Praise the Lord and thank you for your guidance .I am fsting and praying for one week to let the holy spirit confirm and reconfirm what I should do as a very newborn Christian! Amen!:bible

 

[R mungra]

Praise the Lord and thank you for your guidance .I am fsting and praying for one week to let the holy spirit confirm and reconfirm what I should do as a very newborn Christian! Amen!:bible

I never ever had any problem with my concious if a woman seek for help in these kind of cases! I study in Holland for medicine and I specialised in gynecology and obstetrics and iI am international licecsend work in holland Aruba etc etc has been a gynecologist for 30 years one of the two eldest in this specialism in Surinam speak more than 7 languages so the problem is that I did hundreds of ab in my livetime without any problem of my concious like a professional in my work. The problem start now that after worshipping de lord Shiva for 62 years in a splitsecond Jesus Christ call for me and show me that he is the Lord and all other gods are idle In a way that i completly change instantly by repenting for my sins that I even didn't remembered and by forgiving the people who sined agains me i forgive them all everything happend in a few hour I got a reflexing of my entire live because I opened my hart and challenged the God not to call me to go to a church because i am a worshippier of Shiva and dont need any other God so leave me and dont bother me. but at the same moment great things happend as I wrote above and willing or not I had to go infront of thr church after repenting for my sins and ask to forgive my sinners agaings me I didn't had any control over my seilf and had to go infront to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior! he touch me ! I fall down sreaming and shocking not understanding what is going on with me because like a professional I don't believe in acting and drama as you see on tv I always laughed and chang channel. So to make it short I got a touch and I am choosen by the Lord for a reason I told Shiva the same moment I have nothing against you but I saw the Lord himself and I can not serve you any more so i got rid of all the idle and the Shiv ling that was believe or not increased in lenge fron 4 cm during years to almost 10 cm I became another person full of passion for Christ soft hartet helping the poor and people in need and getting problem because i never new the bible i start studying and that give me other feelings about abortion so thats the case i am newborn I am a child in the Christianity loooking for the wisdom and guidance of the Lord so may this can help you understand that I am Highly professional not a thitrh world doctor but my new relationship with The Lord Jesus are learing me other moral values . So I ask you more experiens Christian what di you think is right? Of course I am praying fot the Holy Spirit to lead me because ad the end I will never do this any more in have a conflict with my profession an now with my relasion to the Lord Jesus.And i am asking confirmation and recnformation for my handling so Pray for me and God Bless You All God is Love always Love God is peace God is joy if ther is money this is not from God believe me seek for him and he will add everything you need I experienced that already! God bless you all! JEsUS IS T H E LORD O YES HE Is!

 

[Pegg]

Here are some scriptural laws that God gave the nation of Isreal...these are the laws that Jesus was born under and believed and taught:

Exodus 21:22*“And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. 23*But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24*eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25*branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Gods laws was clear that if someone caused the death, or even premature labour, in a women, then he was to be held accountable for that. If the child came out with fatal injury (ie, if it died) then he was to be put to death.

This shows that God views the life of an unborn baby as 'a living person with rights'

And just to further this point, here is a Psalm of King David praising his God:

13*For you yourself produced my kidneys;
You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother.
14*I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,
As my soul is very well aware.
15*My bones were not hidden from you
When I was made in secret,
When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth.
16*Your eyes saw even the embryo of me,
And in your book all its parts were down in writing,

God does see and care for the unborn....and this is why abortion is the same as murder. Regardless of how the child was conceived, it is still a life and its value is no less valuable then you or I. God sees that embryo as a living person and an individual from the moment of conception.

As christians, we should stive to adopt a like-minded view of life because we are told that Jesus 'imitated' his heavenly father and learned everything he knew from God the Father.
Notice Pauls words:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2*has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3*He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being...,

If Jesus is the 'exact representation' of God, how do you think he would feel about the death of an unborn child?

 

[R mungra]

Here are some scriptural laws that God gave the nation of Isreal...these are the laws that Jesus was born under and believed and taught:

Exodus 21:22*“And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. 23*But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24*eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25*branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Gods laws was clear that if someone caused the death, or even premature labour, in a women, then he was to be held accountable for that. If the child came out with fatal injury (ie, if it died) then he was to be put to death.

This shows that God views the life of an unborn baby as 'a living person with rights'

And just to further this point, here is a Psalm of King David praising his God:

13*For you yourself produced my kidneys;
You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother.
14*I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,
As my soul is very well aware.
15*My bones were not hidden from you
When I was made in secret,
When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth.
16*Your eyes saw even the embryo of me,
And in your book all its parts were down in writing,

God does see and care for the unborn....and this is why abortion is the same as murder. Regardless of how the child was conceived, it is still a life and its value is no less valuable then you or I. God sees that embryo as a living person and an individual from the moment of conception.

As christians, we should stive to adopt a like-minded view of life because we are told that Jesus 'imitated' his heavenly father and learned everything he knew from God the Father.
Notice Pauls words:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2*has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3*He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being...,[/I

If Jesus is the 'exact representation' of God, how do you think he would feel about the death of an unborn child?

Thanks a lot God Bless You!

 

[Sunstone]

The moral thing to do is not always the right thing to do.

 

[oldbadger]

There is more to this then meets the eye.

If a real doctor has to come into a religious froum for medical advise, I dont trust him. Its a big red flag.

Hi outhouse. I didn't see it that way, (as above). I don't think this Dr needs medical advise. At least, he certainly didn't ask for any.

No..... He asked for personal advice linked to his religion and his country's law.

The 'Red Flag' point is interesting. No doubt many 'wags', 'comedians', 'idiots' and 'clevers' come on here with their pet 'clever questions'. If I bother to respond to them at all I always take their posts at face value. If they are 'tw-ts' then they just reinforced their idiocy, and if they are genuine, then that is great.

I followed that mindset here. This could well be a 'let's have fun' thread, but I treat all the same. I only go for the jerks when several pages into the thread, they show themselves.... great fun..... !

 

[Badran]

How to do if you are a gynecologist and ask to do an abortion for in incest case or rape case of a child under 15 y is it a curse for me ? Or must i let her go and seek unprofessionel help with the risk for her own life ? I am become recently a cristian so as most as possible i dont do abortion any more but as a professional i know my job very well should I asked forgiveniss for the Lord and help her or should I send her away in the un known with a high risk? I know a lot of cases in my county and neighbour country where teenagers lost ther life because they dont receive professional help. I am ver confused i pray the lord for the answer i want to serve him and him alone and i dont want to be part of a curse! What is your deep christian feeling about this case? Thanks a lot and God bless you!

You're asking for the opinions of Christians but you welcomed other opinions too, so i'm giving mine. First, generally, i would do what i think i would regret less.

Second, even though it's mostly redundant, do you consider that according to your religion, all abortions, at any time, for any reason, short of the life of the mother being at risk, are wrong?

If so, and i assume this is so, then i think you should consider this conflict a bit more. Yes, the girl would do it anyway and could get hurt, but is that it? Is that the only reason you're so conflicted or is there more?

Do you personally feel her desire to get an abortion is justified in anyway, and so would be her decision, or would you consider them completely unjustified?

 

[Alceste]

Here are some scriptural laws that God gave the nation of Isreal...these are the laws that Jesus was born under and believed and taught:

Exodus 21:22*“And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. 23*But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24*eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25*branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Gods laws was clear that if someone caused the death, or even premature labour, in a women, then he was to be held accountable for that. If the child came out with fatal injury (ie, if it died) then he was to be put to death.

This shows that God views the life of an unborn baby as 'a living person with rights'

And just to further this point, here is a Psalm of King David praising his God:

13*For you yourself produced my kidneys;
You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother.
14*I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,
As my soul is very well aware.
15*My bones were not hidden from you
When I was made in secret,
When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth.
16*Your eyes saw even the embryo of me,
And in your book all its parts were down in writing,

God does see and care for the unborn....and this is why abortion is the same as murder. Regardless of how the child was conceived, it is still a life and its value is no less valuable then you or I. God sees that embryo as a living person and an individual from the moment of conception.

As christians, we should stive to adopt a like-minded view of life because we are told that Jesus 'imitated' his heavenly father and learned everything he knew from God the Father.
Notice Pauls words:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2*has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3*He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being...,

If Jesus is the 'exact representation' of God, how do you think he would feel about the death of an unborn child?

Keep in mind that there are thousands of totally retarded rules and regulations in the old testament that no Christian in the world follows, nor have they ever. Like the prohibition on wearing mixed fabrics, the practice of animal sacrifice, and - significantly for our new friend, an outright prohibition on men having any dealings whatsoever with a woman's bleeding vagina. This dude's a gynecologist. Hello!

If you expect him to literally follow ancient judaic rules that not even the Jews follow today, he's going to need to find another job.

Stick with "let your conscience be your guide". I thought that was much better, and I agree. He certainly should allow his conscience to decide. Not you, or me, or some dusty passages in a boring old book.

 

[Alceste]

You're asking for the opinions of Christians but you welcomed other opinions too, so i'm giving mine. First, generally, i would do what i think i would regret less.

Second, even though it's mostly redundant, do you consider that according to your religion, all abortions, at any time, for any reason, short of the life of the mother being at risk, are wrong?

If so, and i assume this is so, then i think you should consider this conflict a bit more. Yes, the girl would do it anyway and could get hurt, but is that it? Is that the only reason you're so conflicted or is there more?

Do you personally feel her desire to get an abortion is justified in anyway, and so would be her decision, or would you consider them completely unjustified?

Er - mainline protestant Christians are for the most part supportive of family planning, contraception and abortion rights. Catholics and fundamentalists are against. It's not so simple a question. There's a sizeable Christian congregation ready and waiting to embrace any follower of Christ, regardless of his or her personal feelings about abortion. Also, many individuals in any congregation may disagree on this or that official position. Regardless of what the fundamentalists would like us all to believe, Christianity really is pretty much whatever you want it to be. If there's no free will, the whole thing is pointless.

 

[Pegg]

Keep in mind that there are thousands of totally retarded rules and regulations in the old testament that no Christian in the world follows, nor have they ever. Like the prohibition on wearing mixed fabrics, the practice of animal sacrifice, and - significantly for our new friend, an outright prohibition on men having any dealings whatsoever with a woman's bleeding vagina. This dude's a gynecologist. Hello!

If you expect him to literally follow ancient judaic rules that not even the Jews follow today, he's going to need to find another job.

Stick with "let your conscience be your guide". I thought that was much better, and I agree. He certainly should allow his conscience to decide. Not you, or me, or some dusty passages in a boring old book.

for some of us, Gods view is still relevant and important.... the only way to know that view is to pull the dusty old bible down off the shelf and look into it. The conscience will do the rest.

 

[averageJOE]

Here are some scriptural laws that God gave the nation of Isreal...these are the laws that Jesus was born under and believed and taught:

Exodus 21:22*“And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. 23*But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24*eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25*branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Gods laws was clear that if someone caused the death, or even premature labour, in a women, then he was to be held accountable for that. If the child came out with fatal injury (ie, if it died) then he was to be put to death.

This shows that God views the life of an unborn baby as 'a living person with rights'

And just to further this point, here is a Psalm of King David praising his God:

13*For you yourself produced my kidneys;
You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother.
14*I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,
As my soul is very well aware.
15*My bones were not hidden from you
When I was made in secret,
When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth.
16*Your eyes saw even the embryo of me,
And in your book all its parts were down in writing,

God does see and care for the unborn....and this is why abortion is the same as murder. Regardless of how the child was conceived, it is still a life and its value is no less valuable then you or I. God sees that embryo as a living person and an individual from the moment of conception.

As christians, we should stive to adopt a like-minded view of life because we are told that Jesus 'imitated' his heavenly father and learned everything he knew from God the Father.
Notice Pauls words:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2*has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3*He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being...,

If Jesus is the 'exact representation' of God, how do you think he would feel about the death of an unborn child?

It's passages like this that make me glad that I don't live in a theocracy.

 

[Pegg]

It's passages like this that make me glad that I don't live in a theocracy.

i guess for some people, its a terrible thing to be held accountable for negligence....or anything else for that matter.

This is precisely what I like about Gods laws...they hold people to account. And the reason they do so is because they place a high value on human life. How can that be a bad thing??

 

[averageJOE]

i guess for some people, its a terrible thing to be held accountable for negligence....or anything else for that matter.

This is precisely what I like about Gods laws...they hold people to account. And the reason they do so is because they place a high value on human life. How can that be a bad thing??

A bad thing? Let me ask this; When you say "Gods Laws" you really mean your god. Correct?

 

[oldbadger]

This is precisely what I like about Gods laws...they hold people to account.

Hi Pegg.... you didn't answer Alceste's point:-

Originally Posted by Alceste View Post
Keep in mind that there are thousands of totally retarded rules and regulations in the old testament ...................... significantly for our new friend, an outright prohibition on men having any dealings whatsoever with a woman's bleeding vagina. This dude's a gynecologist.............

Is this prohibition written in the Bible?


EDIT: Sorry! I'm still half asleep. Jesus cured a woman who bled constantly for (was it?) 12 years.
My Bad.......... You can call me a twit!.

 

[Sunstone]

i guess for some people, its a terrible thing to be held accountable for negligence....or anything else for that matter.

How is a young girl "negligent" for getting pregnant from rape, Pegg?

This is precisely what I like about Gods laws...they hold people to account.

I don't know, Pegg. Seems to me a real god would be smart enough to avoid making laws that inflict further suffering on a victim of rape. So, maybe the laws you are convinced were written by your infallible god were actually written by fallible men. Either that, or perhaps your god is short some inventory in the morals department.

And the reason they do so is because they place a high value on human life.

Have you ever thought about your notion that prohibiting abortions is necessarily, or in itself, placing a high value on human life -- or, indeed, is necessarily placing anything more than a minimal value on human life, Pegg?

I ask because I know the idea is quite popular with most folks these days, but I'm pretty sure it's full of crap.

To say you place a high value on human life simply because you think every zygote has an absolute or nearly absolute right to eventually be born is certainly sentimental enough as ideas go, but it is also confusing placing some value on human life with placing a high value of human life.

Pegg, there are little girls in China who are each day placed in cages, then dunked up to their necks in ponds in order to feed leeches that are being grown for the Chinese medicinal trade. That's just about the whole of their lives; their purpose and meaning: To feed the leeches.

To say that you believe every zygote has an absolute or nearly absolute right to eventually be born does not necessarily mean you place any more value on human life than the captors of those little girls place on the girl's lives.

So, please don't give me the crap argument that being opposed to abortion is by itself any reliable indication that you -- or even your god -- place a high value on human life.

How can that be a bad thing??

People who say they place a high value on human life merely because they place some value on human life are simply being sentimental. Their values are like Hallmark cards -- chocked full of noble wishes, but cheap to buy and send. How is that a good thing?

 

[Badran]

Er - mainline protestant Christians are for the most part supportive of family planning, contraception and abortion rights. Catholics and fundamentalists are against. It's not so simple a question. There's a sizeable Christian congregation ready and waiting to embrace any follower of Christ, regardless of his or her personal feelings about abortion. Also, many individuals in any congregation may disagree on this or that official position. Regardless of what the fundamentalists would like us all to believe, Christianity really is pretty much whatever you want it to be. If there's no free will, the whole thing is pointless.

I understand. The reason i perceived the question as redundant in this case is only because it basically doesn't get any more obvious than this.

The girl is a teenager who is a victim of incestuous rape, so if he perceives this as such a difficult moral conflict, i could only guess it means he views abortions of any kind and at any point, short of the mother's life being at risk, as wrong. According to his understanding of Christianity.