Abortion hurts women!

[kiwimac]

That may be your belief. Why you believe that is beyond me. The Bible is rather neutral on abortion. And no, you saw a fetus. A baby is a fetus has gone through the birth process at a minimum.

In point of fact the ONE time abortion is mentioned in the Bible; it is considered a crime punishable by the payment of a fine.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In point of fact the ONE time abortion is mentioned in the Bible; it is considered a crime punishable by the payment of a fine.

Really, where? The case of the woman struck in a fight is not an abortion. The test of a faithless woman results in a chemical abortion if she was untrue. No fine there.

 

[kiwimac]

Really, where? The case of the woman struck in a fight is not an abortion. The test of a faithless woman results in a chemical abortion if she was untrue. No fine there.

Exodus 21:22, You and I will need to disagree here about it's meaning. Moreover the test of a faithless wife was not meant to cause a miscarriage, it was meant to confirm the husband's right to his property, ie, the woman.

 

[SomeRandom]

Because we kill 50 million innocent babies a year roughly worldwide and I believe some of them deserved a shot at life and I believe murder is a serious sin against God and that he punishes the world for it.

I don't agree with God's treatment of people and am a bit angry at God, but still I believe each of those 50 million babies had an immortal soul, deserved a chance at life, and see something seriously wrong with a culture that convinces people it's okay to kill their children.

It's the principal of the matter.

So first of all, they're fetuses. Babies aren't really recognized as such by science until I think between 20 - 24 weeks, when it is actually viable. Let us be rational thinking beings instead of emotional wrecks about these things.
Secondly, you're trying to interfere in a woman's life, in a woman's decision about her own body which you do not own over a principle? Seriously? A bit rich coming from someone who will never in their life experience the hormone fluctuation, the morning sickness, the sicknesses related to pregnancy and childbirth. You can bluster all you like, you don't know what pregnancy is actually like and you never will. So already you cannot give a clear cut answer to women, all you know is childbirth good (never mind the pain and potential health risks that causes by itself) and abortion bad (never mind you're not living that woman's life and do not know why she came to her decision.)

Let me put it this way. When I say I am pro choice, that does not mean I am for abortions. No one is in favour of aborting fetuses or babies or whatever. What I am supporting is free will. Something that God is supposed to favour extremely highly, last I checked. Why are you trying to interfere with something God given?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Exodus 21:22, You and I will need to disagree here about it's meaning. Moreover the test of a faithless wife was not meant to cause a miscarriage, it was meant to confirm the husband's right to his property, ie, the woman.

Wrong on both. The blow to the woman in your verse was not intended to kill the fetus, but it did. Thar lack of a death penalty for that shows that a fetus was not considered a person, but calling it an abortion is wrong be because there was no such intent. And for the same reason you are wrong about the test. The miscarriage was the intent. That is what constitutes a chemical abortion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just look at a picture of an unborn child in various stages of development. You were once an unborn baby in your mother's womb.

Killing 50 million of these infants a year is going to have disastrous consequences, for I'm convinced that sin hurts our world. I guess for those who don't believe in God, I can see why you have no issue with it.

I'm completely convinced in the existence of God and it goes against my conscience to be passive about the killing of this many humans and what it will mean for the mother's mind and soul, our culture, and our world!

Sorry, but that is not a convincing argument at all.

 

[SomeRandom]

Just look at a picture of an unborn child in various stages of development. You were once an unborn baby in your mother's womb.

Killing 50 million of these infants a year is going to have disastrous consequences, for I'm convinced that sin hurts our world. I guess for those who don't believe in God, I can see why you have no issue with it.

I'm completely convinced in the existence of God and it goes against my conscience to be passive about the killing of this many humans and what it will mean for the mother's mind and soul, our culture, and our world!

Pfft, I was also once a sperm. Should I lament all the millions upon millions of my sperm brethren that are wasted every time someone has sex, even if the intention is actually to conceive? Should I hold funerals for pre-cum?

Also appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy.

And because I'm a huge jerk and quite irreverent, everybody sing along now!!

(PS, your argument literally made me instantly think of a bunch of British satirists from the 70s. That's not a good sign.)

 

[Spiderman]

Pfft, I was also once a sperm. Should I lament all the millions upon millions of my sperm brethren that are wasted every time someone has sex, even if the intention is actually to conceive? Should I hold funerals for pre-cum?

Also appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy.

And because I'm a huge jerk and quite irreverent, everybody sing along now!!

(PS, your argument literally made me instantly think of a bunch of British satirists from the 70s. That's not a good sign.)

You were not once a sperm. You were you after conception.
It all boils down to whether or not you believe you were human when you were in your mother's womb. I firmly believe you were, so I can't be passive in the face of 50 million humans legally murdered a year. That is cowardice!
I also am not a friend of women if I convince a mother there is nothing wrong with having your baby put to death.
My choice of words in the OP could have been more charitable and for that I apologise, but I can't resist calling homicide what it is, being that I am 100% convinced it is a human being.
If those 50 million babies aborted each year were given a shot at life, I'm sure some of them would have made great contributions to society and been decent PEOPLE!
I find it asinine to think you weren't a human in your mother's womb, but I'll try and see things from your side.
I really don't have anything else to say on the topic.
I can't be passive when I see that many people slaughtered a year. It's cowardice to do so!

 

[oldbadger]

Yes to all the questions.
If abortion was limited to rape, incest, and saving the mother's life it would not trouble me much.
But I don't think God is okay with killing an innocent baby because someone got raped.
Me and God disagree on that one.

OK........ in which caase children born of rape should be especially supported in medicare, education etc to 21 (adult age in your country?)

As long as the people would pay any additional taxes necaessary for whole-life support (disabled) Youth support (all children) and adulthood support (Rape victims) then at least the people would be shouldering the responsibility for their opinions and votes.

 

[SomeRandom]

You were not once a sperm. You were you after conception.
It all boils down to whether or not you believe you were human when you were in your mother's womb. I firmly believe you were, so I can't be passive in the face of 50 million humans legally murdered a year. That is cowardice!
I also am not a friend of women if I convince a mother there is nothing wrong with having your baby put to death.
My choice of words in the OP could have been more charitable and for that I apologise, but I can't resist calling homicide what it is, being that I am 100% convinced it is a human being.
If those 50 million babies aborted each year were given a shot at life, I'm sure some of them would have made great contributions to society and been decent PEOPLE!
I find it asinine to think you weren't a human in your mother's womb, but I'll try and see things from your side.
I really don't have anything else to say on the topic.
I can't be passive when I see that many people slaughtered a year. It's cowardice to do so!

No, logically if I were to follow your argument, all sperm are potential humans. They do not make it, only one (maybe 2 or 3 in the case of twins, triplets etc) make it to the ovum out of a possible million or so every conception. If this were not the case, spilling one's seed (masturbation) would not be demonized by the Church.
See this is all your emotions getting the best of you. Like I tried to demonstrate before, but perhaps my approach was too obtuse. And I too succumbed to anger too quickly.
This is you emotionally reacting to something that you can't logically prove. Let us use logic in debate, not emotions which are easily charged and manipulative.

So you argue that of those 50 million, at least some would be advantageous to society. But ruminate on this. Like it or not, overpopulation would starve us all into extinction. And we are overpopulated NOW. What happens if you let 50 million into life every year as you so claim (assuming all pregnancies go off without a hitch, which is highly unlikely, but whatever)? We would be doomed as a species faster than you can say Hail Mary.
Now we have gotten rid of much of the pressures that do this for us. Sexual selection is now meaningless with single women opting for IVF to "fill a void." Natural selection pressures have given way to luxury and leisure. And modern medicine makes less advantageous mutations able to survive (even if I think this is for the best, in certain circumstances.) And even of we were not in a first world setting, efforts to prevent high birth rates in third world countries are given preference in many charity organisations. As a way to stop women being barefoot, chained to a stove and pregnant (ahem ahem ahem) in order for them to break the cycle of poverty and abuse. In order to reduce rates of children dying en masse of malnutrition, disease, hunger and poverty. In order to ease suffering to human existence, we prefer to opt for reproduction rights being stressed in third world scenarios. Even abortion. And yes this includes the first world for, at least partly, the same reasons. Though less often (if that makes sense?)
Could those that were aborted win the Nobel peace prize for curing AIDS if allowed to live? Perhaps. Then again they could have easily been the next Hitler. That's the problem with dealing with what ifs only from a positive perspective. You intentionally or even unintentionally ignore the other side to the argument. That those 50 million aborted could have become sociopaths, caused massive destruction to our society, been a drain on our economy or even go on to become radicalized leaders pushing for destruction to whole portions of people. You simply do not know what those 50 million could have potentially become, none of us do. But you opt only for the beneficial short term consequences instead of examining the potential evil or even long term hazardous consequences for allowing for all of their survival. What about the here and the now, what's good for society requires a sort of group think almost. A sort of, what is for the "greater good." And like it or not, abortion may be in fact beneficial to society in the long run. Slows down overpopulation rates allowing us time to find actual, legitimate solutions in the meantime (or at least try to.)
This is not simply a good vs evil scenario. Sometimes something we feel is bad is actually good. Sickle Cell Anemia prevents Malaria and all that. Sometimes something we do not personally like might actually be for the best.

And even if that were not true, a woman has pure autonomy over her body. In it's entirety. You do not own her, you do not supersede her rights, this is unlawful. Not even if you were dying would you have the right to demand she save you with even a hair sample of her own. Thus why would you think a fetus, zygote, baby has more rights than you as a fully developed human being in our society? Like it or not, to treat a baby the same we treat humans in our laws, prevents it from having a say in whether or not a woman should carry it to term. Just as you have no right to have a say in her body.

 

[Spiderman]

No, logically if I were to follow your argument, all sperm are potential humans. They do not make it, only one (maybe 2 or 3 in the case of twins, triplets etc) make it to the ovum out of a possible million or so every conception. If this were not the case, spilling one's seed (masturbation) would not be demonized by the Church.
See this is all your emotions getting the best of you. Like I tried to demonstrate before, but perhaps my approach was too obtuse. And I too succumbed to anger too quickly.
This is you emotionally reacting to something that you can't logically prove. Let us use logic in debate, not emotions which are easily charged and manipulative.

So you argue that of those 50 million, at least some would be advantageous to society. But ruminate on this. Like it or not, overpopulation would starve us all into extinction. And we are overpopulated NOW. What happens if you let 50 million into life? We would be doomed as a species faster than you can say Hail Mary.
Now we have gotten rid of much of the pressures that do this for us. Sexual selection is now meaningless with single women opting for IVF to "fill a void." Natural selection pressures have given way to luxury and leisure. And modern medicine makes less advantageous mutations able to survive (even if I think this is for the best, in certain circumstances.) And even of we were not in a first world setting, efforts to prevent high birth rates in third world countries are given preference in many charity organisations. As a way to stop women being barefoot, chained to a stove and pregnant (ahem ahem ahem) in order for them to break the cycle of poverty and abuse. In order to reduce rates of children dying en masse of malnutrition, disease, hunger and poverty. In order to ease suffering to human existence, we prefer to opt for reproduction rights being stressed in third world scenarios. Even abortion. And yes this includes the first world for, at least partly, the same reasons. Though less often (if that makes sense?)
Could those that were aborted win the Nobel peace prize for curing AIDS if allowed to live? Perhaps. Then again they could have easily been the next Hitler. That's the problem with dealing with what ifs only from a positive perspective. You intentionally or even unintentionally ignore the other side to the argument. That those 50 million aborted could have become sociopaths, caused massive destruction to our society, been a drain on our economy or even go on to become radicalized leaders pushing for destruction to whole portions of people. You simply do not know what those 50 million could have potentially become, none of us do. But you opt only for the beneficial short term consequences instead of examining the potential evil or even long term hazardous consequences for allowing for all of their survival. What about the here and the now, what's good for society requires a sort of group think almost. A sort of, what is for the "greater good." And like it or not, abortion may be in fact beneficial to society in the long run. Slows down overpopulation rates allowing us time to find actual, legitimate solutions in the meantime (or at least try to.)
This is not simply a good vs evil scenario. Sometimes something we feel is bad is actually good. Sickle Cell Anemia prevents Malaria and all that. Sometimes something we do not personally like might actually be for the best.

And even if that were not true, a woman has pure autonomy over her body. In it's entirety. You do not own her, you do not supersede her rights, this is unlawful. Not even if you were dying would you have the right to demand she save you with even a hair sample of her own. Thus why would you think a fetus, zygote, baby has more rights than you as a fully developed human being in our society? Like it or not, to treat a baby the same we treat humans in our laws, prevents it from having a say in whether or not a woman should carry it to term. Just as you have no right to have a say in her body.

I didn't ignore the fact that some people would have been better off aborted. Read the OP again.
I've also said there are instances where abortion is the lesser of two evils.
I'm simply saying I'm completely convinced it's an innocent human being and feel God does not want me to be passive in the face of that many humans slain.
I believe at conception God places an immortal soul in the womb and has plans for that person.
I believe it offends him greatly to kill the unborn in the womb and it's my responsibility to not remain passive and apathetic.
Something just tells me there's something really screwed up about a culture that kills this many babies.
Hedonism, lust, sexual addiction, and fornication are also major causes of abortion.
I have issues with all those vices as well. It's a sick, hedonistic, hopeless, Godless culture of death!
You and I simply have to agree to disagree. I've said all I have to say on the issue.
Have a good night!

 

[gnomon]

You won't have to charge them with anything. Still, I gave the definition of homicide. It's obvious!

Women I've met wonder what it would have been like if they kept the child. I used to be active in the pro-life movement, and many of the most active people are women, and some of them are women who regret their abortion.

We harm women by convincing them that it is okay to slaughter their own children. The instincts and nature of a mother causes them to realize what they have done and it traumatizes many minds.

Homicide?

The most comprehensive and largest study of the mental health risks associated with abortion,was published on September 1, 2011, in the prestigious British Journal of Psychiatry.The study was a meta-analysis that examined 22 other studies that had been published between 1995 and 2009.[1] The study involved 877,181 women – 163,831 of whom had abortions.

Here’s what the study found:

Women who have had an abortion have an 81% higher risk of subsequent mental health problems compared to women who have not had an abortion.

Women who aborted have a 138% higher risk of mental health problems compared to women who have given birth.

Women who aborted have a 55% higher risk of mental health problems compared to women with an “unplanned” pregnancy who gave birth.

Women with a history of abortion have higher rates of anxiety (34% higher), depression (37%), alcohol use/misuse (110%), marijuana use (230%), and suicidal behavior (155%) compared to those who have not had abortions.

[Dr. Coleman’s meta-analysis excluded studies that were potentially biased or weak. The meta analysis only included studies that were published in peer reviewed journals, had at least 100 women participating, controlled for prior history of mental health or abuse (that could have skewed the results), and compared women to those who had not had abortions with those who had abortions.]
Abortion Hurts Women – Illinois Right to Life

If you are a mother considering having your child slaughtered please at least give the child a name and apologize to him/her for having him/her murdered. The spirit of your slain son/daughter still lives and one day you will be reunited.

I dated a girl who had names for her two aborted children and she was in a lot of psychological conflict and torment over a decision she could never reverse. Women aren't stupid! Their instincts will let them know they severely went against their maternal nature by having their children slain. A nation that kills it's own children is a nation without hope. If you're reading this, then your mother never aborted you. I'm sorry, I love liberals and will likely lose any liberal friends I had at RF as a result of this thread, but homicide is homicide.

Homicide is the act of one human killing another.[1] A homicide requires only a volitional act by another person that results in death, and thus a homicide may result from accidental, reckless or negligent acts even if there is no intent to cause harm.
Homicide - Wikipedia

To think women are stupid enough to not realize they are having their child murdered is a severe insult to the intelligence of women! To think this won't cause the wounded mother trauma, guilt, regret, and internal conflict is extremely ridiculous.

If you had an abortion, I love you, God loves you, and your aborted child loves you and forgives you. If you are liberal, I feel you. I used to be pro-choice as one can get. I started a previous thread titled "Abortion is beautiful". I told my pro-life mother she should have aborted me. I have lived in jails and mental institutions with murderers, gangsters, junkies, pedophiles, and hoodlums, that I feel would have been better off aborted. I feel it is the lesser of two evils to have a child with HIV, fetal alcohol syndrome, or various other disabilities aborted, but homicide is homicide regardless.

What bothers me most is not the death of the child. The child dies and is spared the agony of life. It is the pain and grief it causes the mother who went against her maternal instincts to have her own child, the fruit of her womb, slaughtered, that bothers me the most. Realizing the pain, trauma, and mental health issues abortion causes women is what bothers me the most as well as how sick it is for society to approve of such madness!

A nation which legalizes homicide and kills it's innocent children is a nation without hope! I love you liberals and I feel you. I'm sorry but I had to speak the obvious truth here. God bless you!

And it is in the instincts and nature of a mother to realize this!

I've lost my respect for you.

 

[SomeRandom]

I didn't ignore the fact that some people would have been better off aborted. Read the OP again.
I've also said there are instances where abortion is the lesser of two evils.
I'm simply saying I'm completely convinced it's an innocent human being and feel God does not want me to be passive in the face of that many humans slain.
I believe at conception God places an immortal soul in the womb and has plans for that person.
I believe it offends him greatly to kill the unborn in the womb and it's my responsibility to not remain passive and apathetic.
Something just tells me there's something really screwed up about a culture that kills this many babies.
Hedonism, lust, sexual addiction, and fornication are also major causes of abortion.
I have issues with all those vices as well. It's a sick, hedonistic, hopeless, Godless culture of death!
You and I simply have to agree to disagree. I've said all I have to say on the issue.
Have a good night!

I'll have a good night tonight, first non midnight shift all week. Praise be to the Lord indeed.
Fine, but I'll say this.
I've never really understood the Abrahamic need to control other people's lives. Do you people have no respect for minding one's own business?
I don't get it. Why does this affect you so much? And I mean that in the abstract sense, since you will never have to be affected by it physically. It's quite easy to talk the talk when you don't have to walk the walk, so to speak.

Hope your night will be better than mine have been. So wrecked.

 

[Spiderman]

I'll have a good night tonight, first non midnight shift all week. Praise be to the Lord indeed.
Fine, but I'll say this.
I've never really understood the Abrahamic need to control other people's lives. Do you people have no respect for minding one's own business?
I don't get it. Why does this affect you so much? And I mean that in the abstract sense, since you will never have to be affected by it physically. It's quite easy to talk the talk when you don't have to walk the walk, so to speak.

Hope your night will be better than mine have been. So wrecked.

Your post inspired me to start another thread. See how much power you wield! I hope the best for you, my Noble praiseworthy nemesis. You take a stand for what you believe, and I sort of wish I could offer you my face to punch and spit on.

You are hard-working, take a stand for what you believe, and explain your position well. *Hat off* to you for that.

I love liberals and sympathize with your views, but at this time I must take a conservative stance. It isn't pleasant.

I hope you understand! Peace and good will to you! Merry Christmas!

 

[SomeRandom]

Your post inspired me to start another thread. See how much power you wield! I hope the best for you, my Noble praiseworthy nemesis. You take a stand for what you believe, and I sort of wish I could offer you my face to punch and spit on.

You are hard-working, take a stand for what you believe, and explain your position well. *Hat off* to you for that.

I love liberals and sympathize with your views, but at this time I must take a conservative stance. It isn't pleasant.

I hope you understand! Peace and good will to you! Merry Christmas!

Well I wouldn't actually punch you or spit on you, for what it's worth. I'd probably offer a brandy instead so we can simultaneously debate and lament the world together. Besides, everything is improved by a nice tot of Brandy in my view.

 

[Spiderman]

Well I wouldn't actually punch you or spit on you, for what it's worth. I'd probably offer a brandy instead so we can simultaneously debate and lament the world together. Besides, everything is improved by a nice tot of Brandy in my view.

We are in agreement there!