Abortion only for rape, insest, and life of the mother.

[Me Myself]

The obvious difference between a fetus and an actual person is that a fetus lacks the qualities (sapience, sentience, the capacity for emotion, the ability to reason, etc.) that define personhood. The true immorality lies with denying women sovereignty over their own bodies.

What is more of a person, a newborn baby or a dog?

Because a dog has more refined sentience, sapience, capacity for emotion and ability to reason that a newborn baby.

Neither you nor I would say (I assume) that the dog of more of a person than the baby. This has to do with both the humanity of the baby and the potential of the baby to become way more than the dog. Both qualities that a fetus posses.

 

[beenie]

well, since you just "HAD to post"?...
what's "not so crystal clear" about YOUR response...

since they're missing from your list... what happened with your 2nd & 4th child?...
also; perhaps you could explain how ANY of your kids could even have AN ACTUAL memory of how they were conceived, please?...
by that I obviously mean; OTHER than what they've been told

We didn't use protection as religiously, so we knew pregnancy was likely with a few of them. (Duhhhhh).

My question of asking them was rhetorical.

My point was that even in a responsible relationship and careful use of BC, pregnancy still can and does occur, as in the case of the aforementioned children.

Your turn, what is your point?

 

[Father Heathen]

What is more of a person, a newborn baby or a dog?

Because a dog has more refined sentience, sapience, capacity for emotion and ability to reason that a newborn baby.

Neither you nor I would say (I assume) that the dog of more of a person than the baby. This has to do with both the humanity of the baby and the potential of the baby to become way more than the dog. Both qualities that a fetus posses.

Unlike a fetus, the baby is aware, interacts, displays expressions and responses and is capable of experiencing both pleasure and pain, physically and emotionally. Whereas a glob of cells is just a glob of cells.

To say that a real person is comparable to and of the same value as a fetus is quite demeaning to real people.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Unlike a fetus, the baby is aware, interacts, displays expressions and responses and is capable of experiencing both pleasure and pain, physically and emotionally. Whereas a glob of cells is just a glob of cells.

To say that a real person is comparable to and of the same value as a fetus is quite demeaning to real people.

It is also the reason why we have a spectrum and range of fetal viability during the entire 40 weeks of gestation. "Most babies that are born at 22 weeks are not even resuscitated because the chances of survival without major disability is so rare." Source

Between 24-26 weeks, the chances for survival jump dramatically, but again we have a range depending on individual fetal development.

 

[Me Myself]

Unlike a fetus, the baby is aware, interacts, displays expressions and responses and is capable of experiencing both pleasure and pain, physically and emotionally. Whereas a glob of cells is just a glob of cells.

To say that a real person is comparable to and of the same value as a fetus is quite demeaning to real people.

You avoided my question.

Why is a dog not considered more of a person than a newborn baby given the qualifications you are posting? Because the dog excels the newborn baby on all such qualifications.

 

[Father Heathen]

You avoided my question.

Why is a dog not considered more of a person than a newborn baby given the qualifications you are posting? Because the dog excels the newborn baby on all such qualifications.

Dogs cannot reason nor understand abstract thoughts. That said, I do value a dog over an unborn fetus.

 

[Storm]

:sorry1: to see this as your response to my actually taking up for you

because of the things we often disagree about your prejudice seems to have blinded you :cover: from even recognizing any common ground to agree upon

Funny how armchair psychology always paints the target as an *** hole, isn't it? I'm sorry, but you don't get brownie points for saying that 13 year olds shouldn't be raped. Anyone who doesn't say that is the scum of the earth.

 

[Me Myself]

Dogs cannot reason nor understand abstract thoughts.

They are closer to newborn babies on doing this things.

 

[NIX]

They are closer to newborn babies on doing this things.

Dogs don't get birth certificates and social security numbers.

What point are you trying to make? ??

 

[Alceste]

Many aspects of the human condition is illogical and bound to fail but the delusion of grandeur of our minds is a humorous issue once realized. I do believe we have strayed off topic, sorry. Respecting the value of human life has a bigger implication than those who don`t realize. Blessings and Joy to you Alceste

Anybody can "respect the value of a human life" when the concept is completely abstract. When we start talking about the value of actual human lives, for example real, live 13 year old girls who have been raped by their stepfathers and face a pregnancy that endangers their lives, suddenly the "respect human lives" crowd doesn't seem to really care about human life. If she dies in childbirth, who cares, whatever, right? At least she didn't take a pill that would have prevented a blastocyst from implanting on her uterus. Because that would be immoral! :sarcastic

 

[averageJOE]

Dogs don't get birth certificates and social security numbers.

What point are you trying to make? ??

I can't grasp the point Me Myself is trying to make with this dog stuff either.

 

[Me Myself]

Dogs don't get birth certificates and social security numbers.

What point are you trying to make? ??

FH is saying that humanhood or personhood has to do with sentience, emotions, desires, etc.

Yet a dog has more refined emotional spectrum, desires, sentience, etc than a newborn baby.

hence, if he truly used the classifications he talked about to qualify personhood, he would have to say that a dog is closer to being a person than a newborn.

The reasons the baby is accepted as a person above the dog are: 1-s/he is an actual human being 2- potential

Both of which are met by the fetus.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

My question is genuine as I really don't know.

For the sake of the thread assume Romney wins the presidency. He then overturns Roe vs. Wade, and only allow abortions in the case of rape, insest, or to save the life of the mother.

My question is about the rape part.

In order for an abortion to be performed does a woman first have to legally prove rape? I know in some cases it's obvious that the woman was raped, if physical violence is involved. But that isn't always how it is.

If a woman is raped and impregnated, names her attacker, but her attacker claims she consented, will she be forced to wait for a trial with a guilty verdict before the abortion is performed?

This is not about religion. Can it be, that men rape, because they are not responsible, and I don't refer to why abortion is practiced. If they are not, and they are trying to be responsible to themselves, living as a human, shouldn't they respect others, and be respected also? If a human can die alone, should he fear dying, looking at others around him, which is not necessary? Is religion telling me to be someone, I am not? Am I religious, then?

 

[Storm]

This is not about religion. Can it be, that men rape, because they are not responsible, and I don't refer to why abortion is practiced. If they are not, and they are trying to be responsible to themselves, living as a human, shouldn't they respect others, and be respected also? If a human can die alone, should he fear dying, looking at others around him, which is not necessary? Is religion telling me to be someone, I am not? Am I religious, then?

The thread is in North American Politics, not Religious Debates. Probably for very good reason.

 

[NIX]

FH is saying that humanhood or personhood has to do with sentience, emotions, desires, etc.

Yet a dog has more refined emotional spectrum, desires, sentience, etc than a newborn baby.

hence, if he truly used the classifications he talked about to qualify personhood, he would have to say that a dog is closer to being a person than a newborn.

The reasons the baby is accepted as a person above the dog are: 1-s/he is an actual human being 2- potential

Both of which are met by the fetus.

The only one with a birth certificate and social security number is a newborn infant.
A newborn infant is also the only one of the three (infant, fetus and dog) who will also receive an official death certificate. Obviously the law recognizes and records the personhood of a newborn infant in the very same way it recognizes that person's continuing personhood up through the time of their death. Legal recognition of personhood into society is met only by the infant.

 

[crossfire]

FH is saying that humanhood or personhood has to do with sentience, emotions, desires, etc.

Yet a dog has more refined emotional spectrum, desires, sentience, etc than a newborn baby.

hence, if he truly used the classifications he talked about to qualify personhood, he would have to say that a dog is closer to being a person than a newborn.

The reasons the baby is accepted as a person above the dog are: 1-s/he is an actual human being 2- potential

Both of which are met by the fetus.

Dogs do not grow in human bodies.

 

[NIX]

Dogs do not grow in human bodies.

If people want to debate the legal rights of a human woman to abort a canine from her womb, even in cases of incest and rape, they really should start a new thread.:cover:

 

[crossfire]

If people want to debate the legal rights of a human woman to abort a canine from her womb, even in cases of incest and rape, they really should start a new thread.:cover:

lol

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

FH is saying that humanhood or personhood has to do with sentience, emotions, desires, etc.

Yet a dog has more refined emotional spectrum, desires, sentience, etc than a newborn baby.

hence, if he truly used the classifications he talked about to qualify personhood, he would have to say that a dog is closer to being a person than a newborn.

The reasons the baby is accepted as a person above the dog are: 1-s/he is an actual human being 2- potential

Both of which are met by the fetus.

Or 3: social convention. Yes, we value babies,but it seems to me that you're looking for a reason why we *should* value babies. Maybe there isn't one.

Or 4: we identify more with a baby than with a dog.

Or 5: a baby is something that will progress over time to have more capability than a dog, but this transition will happen at a different place for everyone, so they pick birth as a "safe" lower limit.

 

[averageJOE]

This is not about religion. Can it be, that men rape, because they are not responsible, and I don't refer to why abortion is practiced. If they are not, and they are trying to be responsible to themselves, living as a human, shouldn't they respect others, and be respected also? If a human can die alone, should he fear dying, looking at others around him, which is not necessary? Is religion telling me to be someone, I am not? Am I religious, then?

No where in the OP does it mention religion. It is refering to the legal side of rape and abortion.