Abortion

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Storm,

The science isn't in dispute, the morality is. I don't believe a zygote is anymore "a human being/ person" than a peeling sunburn. You do, which is why I asked you to explain your reasoning.

Well, scientifically it is a human being, you don't accept that?

1) "Abortion as a means of birth control."
I don't see this as much of an issue. For one thing, I think it's overstated. I've known many women who've had abortions, and none took it lightly. Furthermore, if such women exist, their callousness shows they're not fit mothers in the first place.

I've heard this as well, that few women take abortion lightly, and this always puzzled me; if it's not a human being growing inside you, why the tough decision? Looks like the conscience getting in the way of a political ideology.

But abortion has to be considered a form birth control; you are terminating the baby so it cannot be born. And I'm sure you've heard of young women getting pressured by boyfriends to abort.

Sounds like propaganda to me.....

The flaws in the welfare system are deep, no question. The answer is reform, not abolition. A stupid safety net is better than none at all.

As I'm sure you haven't read the book let's not pre-judge. It is true that it paid more to have a kid out of wedlock on welfare than to raise it with the father. Republicans reformed welfare in 1996 where welfare was reduced and a mother got kicked off of welfare if she had a kid on welfare. Guess what happened; those women finally closed their legs when they realized the money stopped if they got pregnant.

And those were reforms that led liberals to denounce conservatives as Nazis (what's new?) and led three of Clinton cabinet members to resign. You guys aren't exactly keen on reforming welfare at all.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi 9-10ths,

None of those passages declare an embryo to be a person.

As I told Storm, I reject that philosophical distinction.

Scientifically, a human embryo is a human being.

So, why is this class of human beings allowed to be killed?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, scientifically it is a human being, you don't accept that?

In scientific terms, how is "human being" defined?

Is it even a scientific term?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi 9-10ths,



As I told Storm, I reject that philosophical distinction.

Scientifically, a human embryo is a human being.

So, why is this class of human beings allowed to be killed?

You're begging the question. Why do you say that an embryo is a human being? What does this mean, exactly?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've heard this as well, that few women take abortion lightly, and this always puzzled me; if it's not a human being growing inside you, why the tough decision? Looks like the conscience getting in the way of a political ideology.

I don't pretend to speak for women who have abortions, but the decision is - in one sense - about choosing between futures; haven't you ever become mentally attached to the idea of a thing, even if it only exists in potential?

A woman who can't get pregnant might "mourn" what she's giving up when she finally resigns herself to converting the nursery into an office. Does this mean that someone or something literally died?

Also, I think a large part of it has to do with societal expectation. Many people get it drilled into them that abortion is an evil act, and that women who get them are bad. If you've heard this all your life, wouldn't you be hesitant to go through with one?

I don't see it as that different from other religious prohibitions on conduct: if you've been taught that eating pork, playing cards, working on Sunday, or anything is "wrong", then you'll have mental obstacles to overcome when you go to do that thing. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the activity itself; it just means you've got a conditioned response to overcome.

 

[Storm]

Well, scientifically it is a human being, you don't accept that?

No, scientifically it's a human cell.

I've heard this as well, that few women take abortion lightly, and this always puzzled me; if it's not a human being growing inside you, why the tough decision? Looks like the conscience getting in the way of a political ideology.

Because it's not that black-and-white.

I've had three miscarriages, and mourned them all. Not because they were people, but because they might have been.

That said, as a mother, I can assure your that the emotional attachment to a pregnancy is a pitiful shadow of love for a child.

But abortion has to be considered a form birth control; you are terminating the baby so it cannot be born. And I'm sure you've heard of young women getting pressured by boyfriends to abort.

Apologies, every time I've heard that phrase, it was code for "casual abortion with no emotion." I assumed you meant the same.

As I'm sure you haven't read the book let's not pre-judge.

You gave me enough info that I can't help it. We all form opinions on the info we have. That doesn't mean that I can rebut his arguments, but from what you told me, they sounded like hysterical demonization.

It is true that it paid more to have a kid out of wedlock on welfare than to raise it with the father.

Yes.

Republicans reformed welfare in 1996 where welfare was reduced and a mother got kicked off of welfare if she had a kid on welfare.

Problem with that is they didn't couple it with access to birth control. It was a way to pass judgment and enforce your own ideas of morality, not extend compassion.

Guess what happened; those women finally closed their legs when they realized the money stopped if they got pregnant.

Yep, thanks for illustrating my point.

And those were reforms that led liberals to denounce conservatives as Nazis (what's new?) and led three of Clinton cabinet members to resign. You guys aren't exactly keen on reforming welfare at all.

We're not keen on Puritanical punishment, no. That's not reform, it's ostentation.

 

[ninerbuff]

Well, first being Catholic, I am opposed to birth control on those grounds which include (among many others) the devaluation of women (Pope Paul VI's encyclical Humanae Vitae was prophetic on this and many other points). The way birth control has undermined the family as an institution that is the safest and stable environment for women and children. I would also argue the birth control revolution has created an environment where 70% of black children are born out of wedlock, around 40% of Hispanics and almost 25% of whites. Around 40% of all children in the US are born out of wedlock. Again, if this is the success story of birth control, then take all the credit in the world. I believe that is the failure of a false birth control reality that promises 'safe sex' without consequences.

Lol, this is funny. Look at how many out of wedlock mothers and fathers were catholic.

Parents’ Religion and Religious Activities
Mother’s Religion (None) .106 .127 .000∗ .100 .144∗
Mother’s Religion (Catholic) .382 .408 .326 .700+ .242∗
Mother’s Religion (Baptist) .240 .146∗ .196 .100 .308∗
Mother Attends Relig. Activities
(1=Never;4 =≥1/Wk) 1.79 2.11∗ 2.37∗ 2.30 1.92∗
Father’s Religion (None) .119 .080+ .109 .000∗ .097
Father’s Religion (Catholic) .350 .413+ .261 .100∗ .136∗
Father’s Religion (Baptist) .214 .169 .109∗ .100 .189
Father Attends Relig. Activities
(1=Never;4=≥1/Wk) 1.50 1.84∗ 1.76 1.50 1.13∗

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...B9ywhFMmw&sig2=m89ZnzHoGoSWyV-S_P86xw&cad=rja

Pretty high numbers for a religion that is against contraception.