Abortion

[MysticSang'ha]

I am comparing an aspect on both circumstances, rather than the situation as a whole. Although, i do think of induced labor, on certain occasions, as similar ( not completely equal ) to physical assault.

No, it isn't. The intention is not to harm. Otherwise, a doctor would not agree to perform the procedure due to his or her commitment to the Hippocratic Oath. "First, do no harm."

How do you compare physical assault to labor inducement?

Hold on. Do you mean to say that an expert's opinion on the medical area renders our own opinion about ethics unimportant?

I would consider theirs with more weight than yours or mine. Yes.

By the way, if there is someone making an appeal to emotion here, it is not me.

I'll grant you hyperbole, though. The appeal to emotion comes from the demonization of women making decisions for her body in comparisons with her taking drugs, drinking heavily, and overall any kind of reckless comparison when considering the ethics of early inducement of labor.

Oh, and bringing up holding one's granddaughter as evidence for an argument. Hold on, let me go get my kids, too, and maybe that will bolster my position as proving how much I love my kids....

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Neither is if you put your baby in the middle of a dimly lit road "the cause " of its health problems if it gets hit by a car ..survives but is severely disabled for the rest of its life.The mother did not 'cause" the injuries but she sure as hell is responsible in my opinion.

ROFL...keep it coming, Dallas. The comparisons just get better and better. What's next? A mother who induces early is just as bad as drop kicking her infant? Or playing speedbump? Or how about putting the baby in the microwave just to see what would happen?

Yes I "would" BLAME my mother because she would be responsible for it.It would be a fact of my life ...that does not translate to hostility or bitterness .It would be just a fact of MY life..If someone asked me where my disabilities came from I would say I was born premature.If they asked me why I was born premature I would because my mother chose (fact) to have me delivered early because she did not want to be pregnant anymore (fact) .How is it bitterness or hostile to tell the truth?She would be to blame period.

She chose to induce early WITH HER DOCTORS AND A NICU STAFF. Pay attention.

The fact you are singling her out for "blame" is much more than simple accountability for her actions.

And honestly I don't appreciate you arguing with me about how I feel.

WOO-HOO! I struck a nerve!

How about you tell us all how you REALLY feel about women who induce early by choice then? Or how you would REALLY feel if you are suffering from health complications all your life because you couldn't recover from a preterm birth?

If I say I don't feel hostility or bitterness you pretty much saying "yes you do' is arrogant.Its one of my pet peeves in fact.Is having another person think they can tell me or they know better what emotions I'm experiencing in spite of the fact I say I feel otherwise.Like its a matter of "opinion " how I feel inside.

I call it like I see it. Just like you call my position "sociopathic" or "sick." Seems fine for you to dish it out, isn't it?

 

[DallasApple]

That won't work.
Unless you present a completely comparable situation in ( evoked ) emotion, that will not work.

Right I'm beginning to think a parent could even refuse to feed their infant just because they don't want to. When it becomes severely malnourished you could say "you cant blame the parent..they did notcause the malnoursihment"...what caused the malnourishment was lack of nutrition.You must be a bitter and hostile person because you said 'blame'.

Its seems like a desperate attempt to remove any parental responsibility I suppose out side of outright injuring them directly with your own hands.

I mean really where would we ever be "responsible" other than that?

 

[Koldo]

No, it isn't. The intention is not to harm. Otherwise, a doctor would not agree to perform the procedure due to his or her commitment to the Hippocratic Oath. "First, do no harm."

How do you compare physical assault to labor inducement?

As I said, I was comparing them on one aspect.
They both put an indivindual at a high health risk.

I would consider theirs with more weight than yours or mine. Yes.

On what grounds?
We can both agree that they have more knowledge on this procedure than either of us. This doesn't entail that their opinion on ethics is any better than yours or mine. The problem is that we could have a diverging opinion on ethics even if we possessed their knowledge ( which is what their expertise is good for ).

I'll grant you hyperbole, though. The appeal to emotion comes from the demonization of women making decisions for her body in comparisons with her taking drugs, drinking heavily, and overall any kind of reckless comparison when considering the ethics of early inducement of labor.

Beat up that strawman as much as you want.

Oh, and bringing up holding one's granddaughter as evidence for an argument. Hold on, let me go get my kids, too, and maybe that will bolster my position as proving how much I love my kids....

What?

 

[DallasApple]

Excuse me? I was not bringing up holding my grandaughter as "evidence" of an argument. My son happened to drop by and ask me to keep her for a while right in the middle of this debate.I did not go 'get her" and also she does NOT like to be put down. .. It made me think on a PERSONAL note that IF my DIL had decided she did not want to be pregnant anymore at 25 weeks or 26 or 27 ...IF she survived I would not be holding her that minute. If I wanted to see her I would be visiting her in the hospital.Deeply saddened that she has to suffer because her mother obviously cared far more for herself than any amount of suffering her daughter would go through and for the rest of her life.Period.That's is not 'evidence" of my argument that's my personal feelings on the matter if it was MY grand baby in that predicament as we speak.

Also that would be the other thing now that I think about it.Complete indifference to how something like that might affect others who love the child.I suffer when my children suffer and my grandchildren as well..but that's because I have the capacity for sympathy and empathy.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

As I said, I was comparing them on one aspect.
They both put an indivindual at a high health risk.

Depending on birth weight, the health of the mother, and if the woman received adequate prenatal care, the risks are substantially lower. Not all preterm deliveries are the same. But poor health care, poor nutrition, stress, history of preterm labor, age of the mother, can all contribute to raising the risk of health complications for the preterm newborn.

On what grounds?

We can both agree that they have more knowledge on what this procedure than either of us. This doesn't entail that their opinion on ethics is any better than yours or mine. The problem is that we could have a diverging opinion on ethics even if we possessed their knowledge ( which is what their expertise is good for ).[/quote]

I'm talking about medical ethics experts who discuss issues like this. Doctors chime in with their experiences and thoughts and findings. Of course you and I have our own ethics, and we do disagree with the ethics of induced labor by choice to end a pregnancy. But when it comes to people who put a lot of time into these issues, I very likely will listen to what they have to say.

Seems to me the only opinion you'll take is yours and whoever agrees with you.

Beat up that strawman as much as you want.

What?

I'm paraphrasing. Things are being taken personally around here. Thought I'd go grab my kids as examples to support how I'm capable of empathy and compassion for kids.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Excuse me? I was not bringing up holding my grandaughter as "evidence" of an argument. My son happened to drop by and ask me to keep her for a while right in the middle of this debate.I did not go 'get her" and also she does NOT like to be put down. .. It made me think on a PERSONAL note that IF my DIL had decided she did not want to be pregnant anymore at 25 weeks or 26 or 27 ...IF she survived I would not be holding her that minute. If I wanted to see her I would be visiting her in the hospital.Deeply saddened that she has to suffer because her mother obviously cared far more for herself than any amount of suffering her daughter would go through and for the rest of her life.Period.That's is not 'evidence" of my argument that's my personal feelings on the matter if it was MY grand baby in that predicament as we speak.

Also that would be the other thing now that I think about it.Complete indifference to how something like that might affect others who love the child.I suffer when my children suffer and my grandchildren as well..but that's because I have the capacity for sympathy and empathy.

Yeah, excuse you, Dallas. You brought it up. I'm answering it and calling you out on your tactic to appeal to emotion. It won't work. It's done a lot with pro-life groups, and you're using the same tactic.

BTW, I also have the capacity for sympathy and empathy. I raised kids. I got pregnant and gave birth. I breastfed my kids. I did a lot of the same things as you did as a mother. I WORK with hundreds of kids every week. I mentor kids, teach kids, encourage kids, hold babies....heck I took my kids to college classes and breastfed them because I was doing my job as a mother. But now that we've established how great moms we both are, can we get back to the debate?

And you know, stop taking my contentions against your positions so personally. If you think you're justified in your outrage, would you care to address how you called my position "sociopathic" or "sick"? Or is it only okay when you do it?

 

[Koldo]

Depending on birth weight, the health of the mother, and if the woman received adequate prenatal care, the risks are substantially lower. Not all preterm deliveries are the same. But poor health care, poor nutrition, stress, history of preterm labor, age of the mother, can all contribute to raising the risk of health complications for the preterm newborn.

For the sake of the debate, what is your take on cases the risks are not substantially lower?

I'm talking about medical ethics experts who discuss issues like this. Doctors chime in with their experiences and thoughts and findings. Of course you and I have our own ethics, and we do disagree with the ethics of induced labor by choice to end a pregnancy. But when it comes to people who put a lot of time into these issues, I very likely will listen to what they have to say.

Seems to me the only opinion you'll take is yours and whoever agrees with you.

I will most certainly listen to whoever has experience on this subject.
However, i will not let others decide what is ethical for myself.

By the way, let me remind you that arguments from authority, even when they properly apply, are a form of inductive reasoning and not deductive reasoning.

 

[DallasApple]

The appeal to emotion comes from the demonization of women making decisions for her body in comparisons with her taking drugs, drinking heavily, and overall any kind of reckless comparison when considering the ethics of early inducement of labor.

Its not demonizing to say the truth.Early inducement of labor especially resulting in a micro premie runs a high risk (same as drug/alcohol abuse) of the child being seriously disabled.So it is reckless behavior when it comes to the child's well being.

Its a much closer comparison than bottle feeding instead of nursing that's for sure.Bottle feeding instead of nursing does not wreak of an EXTREME lack of concern for the well being of your offspring.Including you can at least give that mother credit..she cared at least enough about you to do her part in making sure you were born with the ability to even breath.

 

[DallasApple]

Yeah, excuse you, Dallas. You brought it up. I'm answering it and calling you out on your tactic to appeal to emotion. It won't work. It's done a lot with pro-life groups, and you're using the same tactic.

But I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.If its a "tactic" some use trust me it was not something I thought about.So I don't know what you mean by "wont work".

 

[DallasApple]

I'm paraphrasing. Things are being taken personally around here.

Its called "empathising".And after doing that my "sympathies" would lie with the suffering the child would endure(including into adulthood)..the affect as well it would have on others who love that person.Not with the mother who had the choice to abort up to 24 weeks..opted not to..then decided to deliver a micro premie because she didn't like being pregnant.

 

[DallasApple]

[QUOTE Hippocratic Oath. "First, do no harm."][/QUOTE]

Those words are not in the Hippocratic Oath.

‘First, do no harm’ is not in the Hippocratic Oath | Pied Type

 

[MysticSang'ha]

For the sake of the debate, what is your take on cases the risks are not substantially lower?

That is up to the woman and her doctor. Not me, and not you. All parties involved ought to assess what is the best decision for all parties involved (including the gestating fetus that might be born).

I will most certainly listen to whoever has experience on this subject.
However, i will not let others decide what is ethical for myself.

Fair enough.

By the way, let me remind you that arguments from authority, even when they properly apply, are a form of inductive reasoning and not deductive reasoning.

I would certainly give their thoughts a measure of credibility and respect, however.

 

[DallasApple]

She chose to induce early WITH HER DOCTORS AND A NICU STAFF. Pay attention.

The only reason I can see that happening is if she has medical issues/complications due to pregnancy putting her at significant risk .Which I said from the beginning is the exception.I do not see many doctors agreeing to induce labor which would result in a micro premie because the woman says at one of her checkups ..Iv'e decided I don't want to be pregnant any more schedule me to be induced.I especially don't envision many hospitals with the facilities and staff to take on an extreme premie would be willing to back him up even if he agreed.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Its not demonizing to say the truth.Early inducement of labor especially resulting in a micro premie runs a high risk (same as drug/alcohol abuse) of the child being seriously disabled.So it is reckless behavior when it comes to the child's well being.

Again, like I said to Koldo, depending on the birth weight, the health of the mother, and the quality of prenatal care, the risks are substancially lower than other risk factors. You're making broad sweeping generalizations that, again, use the same tactics that pro-life groups use when talking about women who have elective abortions up to viability.

Its a much closer comparison than bottle feeding instead of nursing that's for sure.Bottle feeding instead of nursing does not wreak of an EXTREME lack of concern for the well being of your offspring.Including you can at least give that mother credit..she cared at least enough about you to do her part in making sure you were born with the ability to even breath.

Or have a heartbeat.

But I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.If its a "tactic" some use trust me it was not something I thought about.So I don't know what you mean by "wont work".

It won't lend itself to credibility. Let me bring to light you are very supportive of a woman's right to choose up to fetal viability. But the minute the woman has the choice to induce labor to terminate a pregnancy the exact same words are uttered by you to determine the woman's character. That she's "selfish", or that it's a matter of "convenience".

And you still have yet to answer my question about your use of the words "sociopathic" and "sick" to describe my position as legitimate though you continue to insist that I'm offensive by saying your position is hostile. I'd prefer that you answer this as it looks like a double standard on your part.

Its called "empathising".And after doing that my "sympathies" would lie with the suffering the child would endure(including into adulthood)..the affect as well it would have on others who love that person.Not with the mother who had the choice to abort up to 24 weeks..opted not to..then decided to deliver a micro premie because she didn't like being pregnant.

I go back to my original contention that you're using the same argument as the pro-life crowd who wants to outlaw abortion at all times by pointing the finger at the woman and calling her selfish.

Hippocratic Oath. "First, do no harm."

Those words are not in the Hippocratic Oath.

‘First, do no harm’ is not in the Hippocratic Oath | Pied Type

Oy vey....

It's paraphrased in the spirit of the writing. Read it all and try to tell me that physicians and medical staff are not interested in refraining from doing harm or seeking to benefit their patients.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The only reason I can see that happening is if she has medical issues/complications due to pregnancy putting her at significant risk .Which I said from the beginning is the exception.I do not see many doctors agreeing to induce labor which would result in a micro premie because the woman says at one of her checkups ..Iv'e decided I don't want to be pregnant any more schedule me to be induced.I especially don't envision many hospitals with the facilities and staff to take on an extreme premie would be willing to back him up even if he agreed.

They don't have to agree to it. There are plenty of doctors out there who will refuse to prescribe birth control due to their conscience or to perform elective abortions for the same reason. But what you're saying is that she should not have the RIGHT to seek a doctor out. And you are also saying that a doctor should not have the RIGHT to perform such a procedure.

Or is that not your position?

 

[Koldo]

That is up to the woman and her doctor. Not me, and not you. All parties involved ought to assess what is the best decision for all parties involved (including the gestating fetus that might be born).

What if the decision doesn't take into consideration what is best for the newborn? Would you just shrug at that?

I would certainly give their thoughts a measure of credibility and respect, however.

That's the essence of inductive reasoning in these cases.

 

[DallasApple]

That is up to the woman and her doctor. Not me, and not you. All parties involved ought to assess what is the best decision for all parties involved (including the gestating fetus that might be born).

Of course it is..but again I do not see any ethical doctor agreeing to induce labor at for example 25 weeks a woman saying "I don't want to be pregnant anymore".What do you mean ?You don't want the baby because there is always adoption..No ..I just want to "end the pregnancy" because its my body and I shouldn't have to be "forced" to be pregnant if I don't want to.

There is a difference between that and inducing at say 31 weeks because the mothers blood pressure is out of control putting her at risk of a stroke..Or if she is for example diagnosed with cancer and putting off treatments would sign her death note but treating it would most likely kill the unborn etc...

The whole idea of "just because I don't want to be pregnant" is where I draw a line.

 

[McBell]

What if the decision doesn't take into consideration what is best for the newborn? Would you just shrug at that?

Then you should ask the fetus and see what they have to say in the matter.
Once we have their informed opinion, it can also be taken into account....
If they remain silent then the woman's ownership of her own body takes precedent over some random person on the internets personal struggles with ethics.

 

[Willamena]

Those words are not in the Hippocratic Oath.

‘First, do no harm’ is not in the Hippocratic Oath | Pied Type

Sure they're there. Not verbatim, but they're there.