Abortion

[roger1440]

Who decided this? Everything that has lived is dead, and everything that's alive is going to die. Where does the sacred part come into it?

As soon as we are conceived the will to survive is engraved in our genes. We are compelled to seek survival for ourselves and the species as a whole. We are not taught to desire sex. This drive is on the blue print of life. The sex act although pleasurable, it’s main function is the continuation of our species. There is no answer to why. It just is. It’s part of the nature of life itself. It’s like asking why do birds fly or fish swim. No explanation would suffice.

Have you ever noticed there are no laws in the Bible forbidding abortion? The ancient Jews did not need to be told. They already knew. Look closely at the sexual laws in the Book of Leviticus. These laws were made to help the likelihood of offspring. The survival of the Jewish people as a whole was dependent on the strict observance of these laws. Infant mortality was at a much greater rate thousands of years ago then it is now.

 

[roger1440]

How so? Does that mean you get to decide what I can or cannot do with my own body? How about I decide you don't need some part of your body or that you have to carry a tumor around for 10 months? It is not up to you to decide what a woman can do with her reproductive rights. Its up to her.

You had conveniently left out the unborn child from the equation. A woman can physically do whatever she wants with her body. She is capable of jumping off a bridge or walking in front of a moving train, but when it involves an unborn child she sacrifices much more than her own life.

 

[Marisa]

And now you're back to the special pleading based on the false premise that fetal human beings conscript parents. Pregnancy is a unique event and cherry picking the parts of a moral code to support the right to kill a dependent is the special pleading going on here. Under no other circumstances can one human choose something that puts another in a life or death situation and then just decide that they wish they hadn't chosen that and kill them.

That is the special pleading going on here.

Tom

Sorry, that's simply not true. Bodily autonomy is a settled issue. We do not have the right to force any person to give any part or whole of their body to prolong the life of any other person. To say that a fetus has that right because of where it is, is special pleading.

 

[columbus]

Sorry, that's simply not true. Bodily autonomy is a settled issue. We do not have the right to force any person to give any part or whole of their body to prolong the life of any other person. To say that a fetus has that right because of where it is, is special pleading.

"Bodily autonomy" was settled once before, white people had it and black people didn't.
Fetal human beings are unique in that only one person can provide that most basic of human needs, a gestation period. And that one person is also the person who chose to put the fetus in the position of being dependent.
Babies don't just appear like a tumor or parasite. They are the result of a choice made by the parents, with full knowledge that a new human individual might be the outcome of that choice.
Fertile human beings have a great power and with that comes some responsibility.
Tom

 

[Mycroft]

As soon as we are conceived the will to survive is engraved in our genes.

Are you against all abortions?

 

[Marisa]

"Bodily autonomy" was settled once before, white people had it and black people didn't.
Fetal human beings are unique in that only one person can provide that most basic of human needs, a gestation period. And that one person is also the person who chose to put the fetus in the position of being dependent.
Babies don't just appear like a tumor or parasite. They are the result of a choice made by the parents, with full knowledge that a new human individual might be the outcome of that choice.
Fertile human beings have a great power and with that comes some responsibility.
Tom

The bolded is in direct conflict to your previous agreement that consent to sex is not consent to parenthood. I'm not saying that fetal human beings don't have the same rights as other humans. I'm saying that they have the exact same, and not more, rights as other human beings. And none of them have the right to force another human being to give over any part or whole of their body to prolong their own lives. It's pretty simple.

 

[Mycroft]

As soon as we are conceived the will to survive is engraved in our genes. .

This is false. There is no 'will' in our genes. There are no genetic values.

 

[roger1440]

Are you against all abortions?

I'll at least admit I'm selfish.

 

[roger1440]

This is false. There is no 'will' in our genes. There are no genetic values.

Call it what you want, but a acorn for what ever reason knows to become a oak tree.

 

[columbus]

The bolded is in direct conflict to your previous agreement that consent to sex is not consent to parenthood.

No, actually it is not. Not all sex carries the same responsibility. Not all pregnancies are viable. What I'm talking about here is when two people choose behavior that they know might result in another human being, and it does result in a healthy pregnancy.

Tom

 

[Marisa]

No, actually it is not. Not all sex carries the same responsibility. Not all pregnancies are viable. What I'm talking about here is when two people choose behavior that they know might result in another human being, and it does result in a healthy pregnancy.

Tom

And then w'e're back to consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Hence, birth control. Which has been known to fail.

 

[columbus]

I'm not saying that fetal human beings don't have the same rights as other humans. I'm saying that they have the exact same, and not more, rights as other human beings. And none of them have the right to force another human being to give over any part or whole of their body to prolong their own lives.

Yes you are saying that fetal human rights are different, because they are dependent on one particular person.
I would agree with you, if the parent weren't also responsible for the existence of the kid.
Tom

 

[Marisa]

Yes you are saying that fetal human rights are different, because they are dependent on one particular person.
I would agree with you, if the parent weren't also responsible for the existence of the kid.
Tom

No. Fetus' have the same rights, not more. Saying that stage of development = more rights to another person's body is special pleading. It has nothing to do with responsibility because as we know, consent to sex does not equate to consent to parenthood. You're allowing your emotional response to what you see as the morality of abortion to cloud your understanding.

 

[columbus]

And then w'e're back to consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Hence, birth control. Which has been known to fail.

And I am saying that choosing fertile sex is consent to taking responsibility for the outcome, including a healthy pregnancy. There are both other kinds of sex and a 100% safe, effective, available, and free form of birth control. Choosing something else is consent to the well understood possible outcomes of that choice.

Tom

 

[roger1440]

Do you believe that nothing happens that is not Gods will?
If so, does it really matter what you do or do not do?
I mean, whatever you do is Gods will, right?

For lack of a better term, we do have free will. We are not puppets held by some cosmic string. At all times we are at the cross roads of life. We can either choose life or death.

 

[Marisa]

Yes you are saying that fetal human rights are different, because they are dependent on one particular person.
I would agree with you, if the parent weren't also responsible for the existence of the kid.
Tom

No I'm not. I am saying they have the same rights. YOU are saying their location and stage of development grants them special privileges. Again, your emotions are driving your understanding, which is fine. I'm not trying to change you position on whether or not abortion is right or wrong for you. I'm simply hoping that you can come to understand the basics of why it needs to remain a protected choice.

 

[Marisa]

And I am saying that choosing fertile sex is consent to taking responsibility for the outcome, including a healthy pregnancy. There are both other kinds of sex and a 100% safe, effective, available, and free form of birth control. Choosing something else is consent to the well understood possible outcomes of that choice.

Tom

The development and use of birth control belies this statement.

 

[Vishvavajra]

As soon as we are conceived the will to survive is engraved in our genes.

The same genes that give us cancer? The ones that carry crippling and even terminal genetic disorders? The ones that often are so degraded even at the early embryonic stage that the whole thing spontaneously aborts?

Genes code for the reproduction of specific sequences of proteins. That is literally all they do. In the macrocosmic sense that can be beneficial or harmful, depending on how that protein chain interacts with the rest, and on how many errors have crept in during the duplication process.

 

[Levite]

Do you believe that all abortions are wrong?

No. In fact, I believe very few, if any are wrong.

 

[columbus]

I am saying they have the same rights.

No you aren't.
When else can someone involve a person in their life and then kill them because they wish they had not chosen that?
I understand that pregnant mothers are in a unique situation. But so are fetal children. As a result, the rules that apply to other situations don't necessarily apply to reproduction.
You cannot be expected to personally support other people when there are other options. Hence, bodily autonomy is generally the rule. But a fetal human has no other options, so bodily autonomy stops being a right once you choose to involve one in your life.
Tom