That is not true, both historically or even currently. There are still some places in the world that practice cannabalism. And historically, it certainly did exist in many places. While I would never condone such a practice, I thought I would never eat things like goat, camel, etc. until I went to Africa and didn't have much choice. Funny how those things happen.
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Abortion
- Thread starter Mycroft
- Start date
Agreed. And sadly, it is most often men who,hold,this archaic position. I would like to see them carry an 11lb, 10 oz. 26 inch child to term. I did. I like to remember bill Cosby's skit about pulling his lips up over his head to equate the pain of labor.
Sperm cells are unique - they each have their own characteristics.
Do you mean genetic uniqueness? I hope not, since then you would lose any argument for aborting one member of a set of identical twins.
Vishvavajra
Active Member
The same could be said of a zygote, which is actually less animate in its behavior. The problem with trying to draw the line at any particular point in the process is that it's arbitrary. Even scientists who specialize in this sort of thing admit that no strict definition of "conception" is possible. Humans arise as the result of a myriad of causes and conditions.
Incidentally, sperm cells (or semen generally, as they couldn't see the individual cells) in antiquity were thought to contain the entirety of the genetic material for life, which was merely hosted by the female without her contributing anything. Hence ancient prohibitions against spilling seed, as well as ideas about hereditary descent that would seem bizarre to us today. If we still held the ancient view, which Church doctrine used to accept as correct, then male masturbation would be tantamount to abortion, and nocturnal emission to miscarriage.
It's silly, yes, but it goes to show how arbitrary these ideas are. There's no objective scale for determining personhood. Me, I'm tempted to put it at the point where someone learns to speak in complete sentences.
By this argument, if a child needs a kidney and his father is the only match, the kidney should be taken even if the father doesn't consent. Do you agree?
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
There sure is. I have been to one such place. They only eat the dead, however; they don't boil up wayward travellers in a large pot (thankfully).
I never said it did.
What I said was consenting to fertile sex is consent to the outcome of that choice. Same goes for the father, freely choose fertile sex and you owe about two decades of child support regardless of how inconvenient that might be. And you owe more during the time the mother of your child is pregnant, because you owe both of them.
Tom
Once, the law allowed children to be put to work in coal mines. Black people were 3/5ths of a real person. Women weren't allowed to vote.
Laws can and have been changed.
Tom
We all know that when you drive, there's a risk of getting into a collision. Therefore, when you drive, you are consenting to me hitting you with my car.
Which explains one of the huge moral differences between abortion and most other issues. The child involved didn't have any choice about anything.
Marisa keeps going on about the child "conscripting" a woman. The scientific truth is that parents conscript children.
Tom
Yes.
If somebody brings a human being into the world and is the only possible source of survival....
Fortunately your hypothetical is so beyond the reality we don't need laws about it.
Gestation is different. Everyone needs one.
Tom
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
No, we have nothing to do with such a woman. Adharma, a life of sin. Her child will be without caste. Of course, she can mend her ways and if found suitable, her child also can be accepted back in the society.
There is the story of a great sage, Satyakama Jabali who was such a child. When she went to the school, his teacher wanted to know the name of his father. Satyakama said that he did not know. The teacher asked him to enquire this from his mother. When Satyakama asked his mother, the lady said, "Son, in my youth I slept with many men. So I do not know who is your father." Satyakama repeated the same to his teacher. The teacher was impressed by the honesty of both, the mother and the son and agreed to teach him, saying that since your mothers name is Jabala, you will be known as Satyakama Jabali.
As per the Indian law, she is not entitled to an abortion and if she does then she is answerable for it. She does not fulfill any of the conditions in which an abortion is allowed.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
"Upakosala Kamalayana was a student of Satyakama Jabala. He had stayed as a celibate with his teacher for twelve long strenuous years without being certified as a graduate. Satyakama would not leave Upakosala while he had left others. One day, disappointed and filled with sorrow, he resolved to fast and sat before the three Fires of his teacher that he had tended for many years. The fires impressed by his service and filled with compassion decided to instruct him and said –
Prana (the Vital force) is Brahman, “Ka” (Bliss) is Brahman, “Kha” (Space) is Brahman.
Upakosala knew Prana to be Brahman but did not know the other two and thought how could they be Brahman?
The Fires by firstly qualifying Bliss by Space distinguished from the bliss arising from the contacts of objects and the senses, secondly, by qualifying Space by bliss the fires eliminated the material insentient space, that Space possessed of the quality of Bliss is Brahman. The Garhapatya fire told him that the ultimate reality was to be found in the sun, the Anvaharyapachana fire told him it is to be found in the moon, and the Ahavaniya fire told him it is in the lightning, temporarily satisfied with these three instructions Upakosal returned, his teacher saw his face aglow with spiritual illumination but told him that all such instructions were deficient and inferior to what he himself knew, he had been taught that the ultimate reality was to be found in the image of the person reflected in the human eye -
It is this image which is the Atman. It is this image which is fearless, and the ultimate reality. It is this image which brings all blessings. It is this image which is the most resplendent thing in the worlds. He who knows it to be so will himself be resplendent in the worlds. Chandogya Upanishad 4.10.15.
This instruction is a regress from the cosmological to the physiological category. Satyakama was not satisfied with objective existences, and even this instruction was the truth of an inferior kind. Satyakama too had realised that the forces of Nature that one is aware of are ultimately only partial manifestations of power that is in the Absolute."
Satyakama Jabala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Prana (the Vital force) is Brahman, “Ka” (Bliss) is Brahman, “Kha” (Space) is Brahman.
Upakosala knew Prana to be Brahman but did not know the other two and thought how could they be Brahman?
The Fires by firstly qualifying Bliss by Space distinguished from the bliss arising from the contacts of objects and the senses, secondly, by qualifying Space by bliss the fires eliminated the material insentient space, that Space possessed of the quality of Bliss is Brahman. The Garhapatya fire told him that the ultimate reality was to be found in the sun, the Anvaharyapachana fire told him it is to be found in the moon, and the Ahavaniya fire told him it is in the lightning, temporarily satisfied with these three instructions Upakosal returned, his teacher saw his face aglow with spiritual illumination but told him that all such instructions were deficient and inferior to what he himself knew, he had been taught that the ultimate reality was to be found in the image of the person reflected in the human eye -
It is this image which is the Atman. It is this image which is fearless, and the ultimate reality. It is this image which brings all blessings. It is this image which is the most resplendent thing in the worlds. He who knows it to be so will himself be resplendent in the worlds. Chandogya Upanishad 4.10.15.
This instruction is a regress from the cosmological to the physiological category. Satyakama was not satisfied with objective existences, and even this instruction was the truth of an inferior kind. Satyakama too had realised that the forces of Nature that one is aware of are ultimately only partial manifestations of power that is in the Absolute."
Satyakama Jabala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BSM1
What? Me worry?
Why does this come as no surprise?
BSM1
What? Me worry?
As choice is (and should be) here.
I'm glad someone made the sacrifice to give you a chance at life.
The circumstances of your inception is not your fault. Just have to hope someone is willing to give you that chance.
Well, that's monstrous and anti-freedom, but at least it's consistent.
But we do have laws about it. Bodily security is an enshrined right. It ranks even higher than the right to life.
If I need so much as a pint of blood to live, nobody - including my own mother - is compelled to provide it against their will.
Everyone needs freedom and security of the person. Abortion rights are just one expression of this.
I think you missed the point of my analogy.
Acknowledging a risk is not the same thing as consenting to the possible outcome. Driving on the road does not imply consent to be hit with a car. Having sex does not imply consent to pregnancy or childbirth.
Once, here in the good ole USA, blacks weren't people. Women couldn't vote. Table wine was illegal. Native people were shot on sight.
Consistently applying the same morals to everybody all the time is how we improved morally. I believe that unborn children will eventually be recognized as having rights that supercede the right of adults to have any and all the sex that they want.
Just as white people had to acknowledge the rights of black people and men had to share rights with women etc. fertile people will eventually recognize that everyone needs a gestation period. If they are not willing to provide one they don't have a right to fertile sex.
Tom