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Abortion

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Most people believe you are delusional, too. Your God, or any other God, is not believed by the majority of people on earth.

And, of course, what the majority of people believe, does not add a iota to the veracity of said belief. The vast majority of people believed that the sun was orbiting the earth. Including the authors of your holy book. Did that increase the odds of them being right?



Be a gentleman and send me the pointer to one. The strongest one, in your opinion.

Ciao

- viole

You are misquoting the scriptures. The Bible does not use the term "revolve" or say the Sun orbits Earth. You are also misapplying the fallacy of ad populum. Most people changed their beliefs regarding orbits once scientific facts were presented. You are likewise claiming people believe about God despite good evidence not to do so. Here is your opportunity to receive and share facts:

I will likewise change my mind on the subject. Present your three best facts here. I'll start:

Fact #1 - Bible prophecy regarding the Jews and Israel is demonstrably, remarkably true.

Fact #2 - Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies about His first advent, against all chance.

Fact #3 - Most of the early believers were Jews, in Israel, who would have known immediately if the claims regarding Jesus's ministry (many, many thousands of followers, healing thousands of people, raising others from the dead, etc.) were false. They could have said, "There was no one here healing ill people, multitudes of ill people, with all types of afflictions, nor was Jesus known in Galilee, born in Bethlehem, died on a cross, his tomb remains full, there were no soldiers posted at his tomb, etc." rather than believing in droves.

Facts that demonstrate, from science or any arena you like, that most people are delusional regarding God, and that God does not exist:

Fact 1 __________________________________________________

Fact 2 __________________________________________________

Fact 3 __________________________________________________
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
You are misquoting the scriptures. The Bible does not use the term "revolve" or say the Sun orbits Earth. You are also misapplying the fallacy of ad populum. Most people changed their beliefs regarding orbits once scientific facts were presented. You are likewise claiming people believe about God despite good evidence not to do so. Here is your opportunity to receive and share facts:

I think it was you who started using ad-populum arguments. Like comparing the number of people believing in God vs. people believing in Mother Goose.

If that is not ad-populum, then what is it?

I will likewise change my mind on the subject. Present your three best facts here. I'll start:

Fact #1 - Bible prophecy regarding the Jews and Israel is demonstrably, remarkably true.

Yet, they still do not believe in Jesus. Most of them. I thought the prophecy says that they will know that God is their God. But how can it be if they do not even recognize the divinity of Jesus? HImself God, allegedely.

Fact #2 - Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies about His first advent, against all chance.

It is not difficult to write a book with prophecies and the fulfillment thereof, in the same book. Especially when you write a new book based on the older one.

Fact #3 - Most of the early believers were Jews, in Israel, who would have known immediately if the claims regarding Jesus's ministry (many, many thousands of followers, healing thousands of people, raising others from the dead, etc.) were false. They could have said, "There was no one here healing ill people, multitudes of ill people, with all types of afflictions, nor was Jesus known in Galilee, born in Bethlehem, died on a cross, his tomb remains full, there were no soldiers posted at his tomb, etc." rather than believing in droves.

Again. Stories in a book. Do you also believe in Zeus? I can show you plenty of written evidence about his stunts.

Is that really all you got? Stories on a book? I was expecting some really cool cosmological argument or something of the sort.

Facts that demonstrate, from science or any arena you like, that most people are delusional regarding God, and that God does not exist:

Fact 1 __________________________________________________

Fact 2 __________________________________________________

Fact 3 __________________________________________________

Since you seem to confuse reality with what you read on a book, I have something for you. i am writing a book about this. It is called the Badspel according to viole.

It is not finished, yet. But I can offer you an excerpt:

viole 11-32:15
"Verily, verily I say to you. There is no God."

Ciao

- viole
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Facts that demonstrate, from science or any arena you like, that most people are delusional regarding God, and that God does not exist:

Fact 1 __________________________________________________

Fact 2 __________________________________________________

Fact 3 __________________________________________________
Can you do this for things you agree are delusions?
 

McBell

Unbound
I did not repeat myself, but stated a prophecy that you've proven as fact.

You left my three blanks, blank!

Try again. Your three favorite pieces of evidence that the overwhelming majority of people, who assert God exists, are wrong... here are your best evidences that God does not exist:

Fact #1 _______________________________________________

Fact #2 _______________________________________________

Fact #3 _______________________________________________
merely repeating your desperation does not help you.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Fact #3 - Most of the early believers were Jews, in Israel, who would have known immediately if the claims regarding Jesus's ministry (many, many thousands of followers, healing thousands of people, raising others from the dead, etc.) were false. They could have said, "There was no one here healing ill people, multitudes of ill people, with all types of afflictions, nor was Jesus known in Galilee, born in Bethlehem, died on a cross, his tomb remains full, there were no soldiers posted at his tomb, etc." rather than believing in droves.
They did. The NT shows us that Jews were rather angry about the things being said by the apostles. I can even point you to all the falsehoods I can think of off-hand: any scene where the apostles are not in the room or building and yet we know what was said when neither the "authors" nor anyone remotely witnessing this story would've told this story. For example, from Acts 4:
15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, 16 saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been wrought through them, is manifest to all that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it. 17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.18 And they called them, and charged them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
The leaders pay lip service to belief (which I call BS) and then kick out EVERYONE but themselves, and yet we hear this conversation? Are rock or brick walls paper thin so you can easily hear them from down the hallway or outside the building? At any rate, though, the apostles had a rough time of it and thus prove your point, no?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I think it was you who started using ad-populum arguments. Like comparing the number of people believing in God vs. people believing in Mother Goose.

If that is not ad-populum, then what is it?



Yet, they still do not believe in Jesus. Most of them. I thought the prophecy says that they will know that God is their God. But how can it be if they do not even recognize the divinity of Jesus? HImself God, allegedely.



It is not difficult to write a book with prophecies and the fulfillment thereof, in the same book. Especially when you write a new book based on the older one.



Again. Stories in a book. Do you also believe in Zeus? I can show you plenty of written evidence about his stunts.

Is that really all you got? Stories on a book? I was expecting some really cool cosmological argument or something of the sort.



Since you seem to confuse reality with what you read on a book, I have something for you. i am writing a book about this. It is called the Badspel according to viole.

It is not finished, yet. But I can offer you an excerpt:

viole 11-32:15
"Verily, verily I say to you. There is no God."

Ciao

- viole

1. As I've pointed out elsewhere, it would be impossible for the prophecies about the Jewish people in the Bible to be self-fulfilled prophecies:

*The Jewish people would be in diaspora for millennia, the cream of many countries, and hated and persecuted in each of those countries, then return to re-form a Jewish State in Israel.

2. I've offered you four arenas of research, including prophecy, but clearly you are an armchair critic, not actually researching Bible prophecy, but disdaining it with unsubstantiated ideas, like "anyone could write two books and have one fulfill the other"

2a. No, not when the books include prophecies of resurrection, and healing for tens of thousands of people.

2b. No, the Bible isn't two books, but testimonies from over 40 authors. Over a dozen NT writers independently confirmed the truths of the NT

3. Please, let's not argue any longer unless you have facts to present.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
They did. The NT shows us that Jews were rather angry about the things being said by the apostles. I can even point you to all the falsehoods I can think of off-hand: any scene where the apostles are not in the room or building and yet we know what was said when neither the "authors" nor anyone remotely witnessing this story would've told this story. For example, from Acts 4:

The leaders pay lip service to belief (which I call BS) and then kick out EVERYONE but themselves, and yet we hear this conversation? Are rock or brick walls paper thin so you can easily hear them from down the hallway or outside the building? At any rate, though, the apostles had a rough time of it and thus prove your point, no?

I'm having a little trouble following your lines of thought here, so please restate if you must, but you seem to have glossed over an important fact in your reading:

for that indeed a notable miracle hath been wrought through them, is manifest to all that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it
 

McBell

Unbound
I've asked you twice now. Last chance, do you have any facts on your side or are you involved in mere wishful thinking, that God doesn't exist?
I do not claim god does not exist.
I flat out admit that I do not know either way.

That is all besides the point though.
You claim god exists.
Therefore it is on you to support that claim.
And no, saying that no one can show god does not exist does not support your claim that god exists.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes, I can provide facts against the Moon being made of cheese, and so on.
You can? Great! Go for it: please demonstrate that the Moon is not made of cheese.

Do you mind if I create a new thread for this so we don't take this one off track any more than necessary?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
1. As I've pointed out elsewhere, it would be impossible for the prophecies about the Jewish people in the Bible to be self-fulfilled prophecies:

*The Jewish people would be in diaspora for millennia, the cream of many countries, and hated and persecuted in each of those countries, then return to re-form a Jewish State in Israel.

Yet, they still do not believe in God, or your version thereof. Prima facie, they do not seem to know that (your) God is their God, as the prophecy says concerning their reunion. However, it could be that the prophecy is completely fulfilled, that they know exactly that God is their God, and that the true God is not your God (with child).

2. I've offered you four arenas of research, including prophecy, but clearly you are an armchair critic, not actually researching Bible prophecy, but disdaining it with unsubstantiated ideas, like "anyone could write two books and have one fulfill the other"

2a. No, not when the books include prophecies of resurrection, and healing for tens of thousands of people.

All stories in the same book. It is not very difficult to read the old testament and somehow make up stories that fulfill it. On second thought, it is probably not so easy to do it in a convincing way, if we consider that most Jews still do not buy it. And if the authors of the older books do not buy the prophecy fulfillments in the new, how do you intend to convince somene who does not beiieve either of them?

2b. No, the Bible isn't two books, but testimonies from over 40 authors. Over a dozen NT writers independently confirmed the truths of the NT

The stories about magic Excalibur and King Arthur seem also to have been sung by different people.

3. Please, let's not argue any longer unless you have facts to present.

You are making the positive claim, about all these stories, so I think you have the duty to provide evidence that is at least comparable with the claim.

Remeber Hume: a miracle is such only when all other alternatives are more miracolous than they event they want to explain. In this case, it is not diffcult to find very mundane explanations for your claims.

Ciao

- viole
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
Is this debate still about abortion?

Um, well I've been thinking long and hard about this issue, and I think I might be able to present a reasonable argument against the morality of abortion. I personally am a Pro-life, but many of the pro-life arguments I hear are heavily religious. I think I can present a secular argument against abortion, if you guys are willing to hear me out (perhaps critic it etc?). However, since this is a religion debate subdir, I am happy to make a new thread in the philosophy dir.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I do not claim god does not exist.
I flat out admit that I do not know either way.

That is all besides the point though.
You claim god exists.
Therefore it is on you to support that claim.
And no, saying that no one can show god does not exist does not support your claim that god exists.

It's rather on God to support God's claims. It would be wise, though, to investigate these things proactively. I'm unsure how you're saying white every time a theist says black on these forums is "investigating".
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Yet, they still do not believe in God, or your version thereof. Prima facie, they do not seem to know that (your) God is their God, as the prophecy says concerning their reunion. However, it could be that the prophecy is completely fulfilled, that they know exactly that God is their God, and that the true God is not your God (with child).



All stories in the same book. It is not very difficult to read the old testament and somehow make up stories that fulfill it. On second thought, it is probably not so easy to do it in a convincing way, if we consider that most Jews still do not buy it. And if the authors of the older books do not buy the prophecy fulfillments in the new, how do you intend to convince somene who does not beiieve either of them?



The stories about magic Excalibur and King Arthur seem also to have been sung by different people.



You are making the positive claim, about all these stories, so I think you have the duty to provide evidence that is at least comparable with the claim.

Remeber Hume: a miracle is such only when all other alternatives are more miracolous than they event they want to explain. In this case, it is not diffcult to find very mundane explanations for your claims.

Ciao

- viole

I can't argue nonsense like your:

And if the authors of the older books do not buy the prophecy fulfillments in the new

Know a bunch of OT authors, do you?!

If you are referring to Jewish people, all the NT authors were Jewish! And they didn't reject Jesus!

You are, besides misusing Hume's ideas, making a wrong assertion--that:

In this case, it is not diffcult to find very mundane explanations for your claims

1. You haven't found any!

2. Please give the mundane reason why Jewish people were persecuted in nearly 100 nations, per Bible prophecy. And how they were hated without reason, and indeed, per prophecy, were the cream of each of those nations, while hated and persecuted--and then, per prophecy, returned, still teaching Hebrew, to ancestral lands uniquely after 2,500 years in diaspora and exile. Shall I continue with more prophecies "of the mundane?"

3. Please give the mundane reason why millions of Gentiles worldwide worship Jesus despite your protestations that "no" Jews do... per prophecy!

He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

4. You have two problems--one, disbelief, two, arguing over and again to others--I fear if you continue to close yourself off to God, He will close your opportunity...
 

McBell

Unbound
It's rather on God to support God's claims. It would be wise, though, to investigate these things proactively. I'm unsure how you're saying white every time a theist says black on these forums is "investigating".
It is on you to support your claims.
If the best you got is to pass the burden off onto an imaginary friend.....
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
It is my observation that right to life generally always overrides the right to autonomy. Mind you some philosophers like Judith Jarvis Thompson have tried to argue against this established view, but I find their arguments not very convincing (I could write a post about why if needed). I understand "rights" as ideals which are naturally present and which are possessed by all human beings. A moral wrong is committed when a right is violated, and thus an ideal government must ensure that the laws in society protect the various rights of human beings. Where an action violates two or more rights, it is morally wrong if it violates the more important right at the expense of a lesser on. Let me give everyone a scenario:

Let us say their exists a sovereign state which has the right to determine how the state should be run including issues like who is allowed in/out of the state's borders, what taxes each citizen has to pay to the state etc. Now, the state offers a refugee asylum, for the refugee is running away from a threat which would do her great harm (more specifically the threat would kill her, violating her right to life). Now, is it morally okay, for the state to exercise its right of "sovereignty" and kick the refugee out of the state knowing full well that it would result in her death? I would argue no, because by exercising a lesser right, it violates a greater one, and therefore such an action is morally wrong.

I believe this is analogy is similar to the situation of abortion. A human being, like a state has a right to control how their body is run and have a choice over decisions pertaining to it. The right to autonomy actually falls under the broader rights of consent/rationality (vaguely understood as, I have a right for my decisions/choices not to be violated by the others). If the fetus has a right to life, then it follows that it would be immoral for a mother to remove the fetus from her womb (i.e exercise the right of autonomy), knowing full well that it would violate its right to life. So in this issue of the immorality or morality of abortion, I think the rights of autonomy are largely irrelevant. Only a very few philosophers argue in this way, and their stance is quite extreme sometimes (i.e it is moral to abort a late term pregnancy, all the way up to birth). The main issue I think is whether or not a fetus has a right to life. Most of the philosophers argue on this point (defining right to life, and putting their arguments forwards etc), which leads to their conclusions.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It is my observation that right to life generally always overrides the right to autonomy. Mind you some philosophers like Judith Jarvis Thompson have tried to argue against this established view, but I find their arguments not very convincing (I could write a post about why if needed). I understand "rights" as ideals which are naturally present and which are possessed by all human beings. A moral wrong is committed when a right is violated, and thus an ideal government must ensure that the laws in society protect the various rights of human beings. Where an action violates two or more rights, it is morally wrong if it violates the more important right at the expense of a lesser on. Let me give everyone a scenario:

Let us say their exists a sovereign state which has the right to determine how the state should be run including issues like who is allowed in/out of the state's borders, what taxes each citizen has to pay to the state etc. Now, the state offers a refugee asylum, for the refugee is running away from a threat which would do her great harm (more specifically the threat would kill her, violating her right to life). Now, is it morally okay, for the state to exercise its right of "sovereignty" and kick the refugee out of the state knowing full well that it would result in her death? I would argue no, because by exercising a lesser right, it violates a greater one, and therefore such an action is morally wrong.

I believe this is analogy is similar to the situation of abortion. A human being, like a state has a right to control how their body is run and have a choice over decisions pertaining to it. The right to autonomy actually falls under the broader rights of consent/rationality (vaguely understood as, I have a right for my decisions/choices not to be violated by the others). If the fetus has a right to life, then it follows that it would be immoral for a mother to remove the fetus from her womb (i.e exercise the right of autonomy), knowing full well that it would violate its right to life. So in this issue of the immorality or morality of abortion, I think the rights of autonomy are largely irrelevant. Only a very few philosophers argue in this way, and their stance is quite extreme sometimes (i.e it is moral to abort a late term pregnancy, all the way up to birth). The main issue I think is whether or not a fetus has a right to life. Most of the philosophers argue on this point (defining right to life, and putting their arguments forwards etc), which leads to their conclusions.
I agree. I think the debate does center on the right to life and whether an early term fetus has it. The Hindu perspective is complex, so let us look at the issue from a Buddhist perspective which is more tractable. The Buddhist view of the self is that it is a psycho-physical complex, the union of the 5 skandas and their continual dependently originated causal interaction that provides the sense of self in a person. I think it is a good first stab to consider this complex as the "person" that holds the "rights" in a social context. Now, I would argue that an early term fetus to too immature a brain for it to have the capacity to become a "locus" of such a psycho-physical complex. The inter-neural connections that will kickstart this dependently causal nexus only begins to form near the end of the 2nd trimester (23rd week), but then in proceeds very rapidly such that all neural connections that will be present in the adult brain has been completed by the middle of the third trimester. Therefore, a third trimester fetus can serve as a locus of the complex and hence is psychologically continuous with the person who has rights, while a second trimester fetus is not continuous with the person who holds rights and therefore does not enjoy such protection.
The Hindu perspective brings in the Atman that stands behind such a psychophysical complex and "grounds" its continuity. But since the Atman cannot be harmed at all, saying it has a right to be not harmed seems meaningless.
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
I agree. I think the debate does center on the right to life and whether an early term fetus has it. The Hindu perspective is complex, so let us look at the issue from a Buddhist perspective which is more tractable. The Buddhist view of the self is that it is a psycho-physical complex, the union of the 5 skandas and their continual dependently originated causal interaction that provides the sense of self in a person. I think it is a good first stab to consider this complex as the "person" that holds the "rights" in a social context. Now, I would argue that an early term fetus to too immature a brain for it to have the capacity to become a "locus" of such a psycho-physical complex. The inter-neural connections that will kickstart this dependently causal nexus only begins to form near the end of the 2nd trimester (23rd week), but then in proceeds very rapidly such that all neural connections that will be present in the adult brain has been completed by the middle of the third trimester. Therefore, a third trimester fetus can serve as a locus of the complex and hence is psychologically continuous with the person who has rights, while a second trimester fetus is not continuous with the person who holds rights and therefore does not enjoy such protection.
The Hindu perspective brings in the Atman that stands behind such a psychophysical complex and "grounds" its continuity. But since the Atman cannot be harmed at all, saying it has a right to be not harmed seems meaningless.

Thanks for your view. You are right, the Hindu view is certainly complex. I would argue, from a Hindi viewpoint, that abortion after conception is harming the atma, not physically, but spiritually, because you are deriving it of a human life which is very rare to attain and which leads to moksha. The puranas mirror this statement. That is essentially how the schools of Vedanta will argue on this issue.

As for the right to life, I will briefly go over my opinion on this. While psychophysical complex which you are describing is sufficient for a right to life, it is not necessary .I believe that right to life can extend to those beings who have the potential (and by this I don't mean may become, but rather will become allowed to continue) for such a complex. There was a philosophical paper by Bertha Alvarez in defense of this argument. Another argument I like is the argument from deprivation (by ending the fetus' life, we are depriving it of its future as a rational agent). My personal argument goes as follows:

Imagine there are 3 human beings in deep coma. In such a coma only the autonomic functions of the body work. Rational and conscious thought have stopped, and the individual has no sentience. Now the first human being (being A) has no chance ever of coming out of this deep coma. The second one (being B) has a possibility of escaping the coma over a unknown period of time. The third one however (person C) will come out of the Coma and resume life after a known period of time.

Now, I would argue, that person A has does not have a right to life, while persons B and C do. As far as I see, if person A has no way resuming life, she is simply a burden on medical resources, so it would not be morally wrong to end her life. Person B's case is more interesting, but I am of the view that if the possibility exists, it must be preserved. Person C I think clearly has a claim to life, and it would be morally wrong to end her life. Now in person C case, would the time matter. If it was only a matter of seconds before she awoke from the coma, would it make a difference to her right to life, compared to if say, it was 10 years?. In any case, the situation of person C is analogous to the situation of an embryo. If left unhindered, will grow into a rational agent (human being) and therefore, like person C, has a right to life. There are objections to this view (and if anyone can come up with them I would be happy to respond). The right to life definition varies quite alot from philosopher to philosopher.
 
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