Abortion

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

If a person refuses to donate their organs, it doesn't matter if those organs would save a life - they get buried or cremated. We treat the bodily security of a corpse as more important than a person's right to life.

I am rather thankful my parents refused my being used for transplants.
otherwise i would not have had a body to return to after my death ...

 

[Marisa]

God is no more responsible for the abortion as he would be for a heart attack or being hit by a car. It is a part of life and the choices and actions of humans not God. There are many reasons why a woman may abort a fetus/baby. Sometimes its because of lifestyle or age, sometimes it just happens from some unknown cause where something has gone wrong. But one thing I do know is that most women if they know they are pregnant and lost their baby are upset and grieve like they have lost a child.

This to me shows that they are carrying a life as they know more than anyone because they are the ones attached to this little being inside them. Its OK for people to make all the justifications for having an abortion but in the end its the women who suffer. There is a high rate of depression, and other mental and emotional problems when women have abortions. So despite what people say its the reality of what they actually end up going through is what really shows whats going on.

I could develop cancer but not know more about it because it's in my body than an oncologist. There is no valid scientific data which suggest that abortions cause any type of cancer or mental maladies for women.
Abortion and Mental Health: Myths and Realities

ETA: If you are against abortion, that's fine. But please don't perpetuate the repetition of self validating but nevertheless false information regarding the deleterious affects of the procedure. And please don't think that your opinion regarding its legality carries more weight than anyone else's.

 

[JoStories]

I am rather thankful my parents refused my being used for transplants.
otherwise i would not have had a body to return to after my death ...

If I am not mistaken I didn't write that. It is not something I beleive at all.

 

[Marisa]

Not one single person in this thread has really addressed the point being made by the OP. First of all, I don't really think that this quote can be credited to Tyson, but I'm too lazy to google and challenge it, because I do know that this has been quoted before (maybe, Harris?). But the point of the OP is simply this: if you believe that capital G god is responsible for everything, that means that he created a pregnancy, and then caused it to miscarry. That simple.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But one thing I do know is that most women if they know they are pregnant and lost their baby are upset and grieve like they have lost a child.

This to me shows that they are carrying a life as they know more than anyone because they are the ones attached to this little being inside them.

Have you ever considered the possibility that these people aren't so much grieving over a person as their hope for something?

I've seen people who were trying to get pregnant "grieve" at not ovulating, or at thinking they were pregnant but finding out they weren't. There are plenty of reasons why someone who's trying for a child might be unhappy when they find out they're not successful without the sorts of beliefs you're inferring.

OTOH, I've personally witnessed several times when supposedly "pro-life" people were told of a loved one's miscarriage. Not once did any of them react the way I would expect someone to react to news of the death of a child.

Go wander a Catholic cemetery and try to find headstones with no birthdate on them. There's a few, but they're rare... much rarer than would be expected if miscarriage was treated like the death of an actual baby.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There are a lot of religious arguments (and general political ones) against abortion. But I think that the argument, generally speaking, demonstrates the scientific illiteracy of the everyman.

So you're against abortion for whatever reason, but consider this argument from Neil DeGrasse Tyson:

"Most abortions are spontaneous and happen naturally within the human body. Most women who have such an abortion never know it because it happens within the first month. It is very, very common. So in fact the biggest abortionist, if god is responsible for what goes on in your body, is god."

Now when he says 'very common' what he means is 50-70%. That's 50-70% of all pregnancies end in a spontaneous abortion that you 1) can't control and 2) are never aware of.

So how is the anti-abortionist stance tenable given this dataset?

Compare a mother's heartfelt loss at a miscarriage and adoptive parents' pain at waiting for years to adopt with the throwaway nature of non-spontaneous abortion.

 

[dawny0826]

There are a lot of religious arguments (and general political ones) against abortion. But I think that the argument, generally speaking, demonstrates the scientific illiteracy of the everyman.

So you're against abortion for whatever reason, but consider this argument from Neil DeGrasse Tyson:

"Most abortions are spontaneous and happen naturally within the human body. Most women who have such an abortion never know it because it happens within the first month. It is very, very common. So in fact the biggest abortionist, if god is responsible for what goes on in your body, is god."

Now when he says 'very common' what he means is 50-70%. That's 50-70% of all pregnancies end in a spontaneous abortion that you 1) can't control and 2) are never aware of.

So how is the anti-abortionist stance tenable given this dataset?

I'm personally pro-life and politically pro-choice.

I have problems with the quote above.

First, most women refer to natural miscarriage as...miscarriage, not abortion. Second, the statistics above aren't quite accurate. Approximately 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage. That's approximately 20%-25% that end in natural miscarriage. Out of that percentage, 50%-70% happen early on in pregnancy, usually as a result of chromosomal abnormalities.

Understanding miscarriage | BabyCenter

There's a significant difference between a miscarriage and an elective abortion. With the latter, a woman is choosing to terminate her pregnancy - a pregnancy which may have had the potential to go full term.

Thanks to pregnancy tests that test for low levels of hcg, women sometimes learn of a pregnancy before a missed period, making it painfully obvious when something goes wrong early on. From my perspective, there's just no comparison between a naturally occurring miscarriage and an elective abortion without medically therapeutic cause.

From my spiritual/religious perspective, life is God's to give and take away. That would make a miscarriage no less devastating to me. The fact that it occurs naturally before many women know that they were pregnant in no way sways my personal stance on elective abortion.

 

[McBell]

Compare a mother's heartfelt loss at a miscarriage and adoptive parents' pain at waiting for years to adopt with the throwaway nature of non-spontaneous abortion.

OK
Now what?

 

[BilliardsBall]

OK
Now what?

I was answering the question. Perhaps next we might consider how much everyone loves little babies, even the ones in the hospital born months premature. Now we can consider whether we would enter the NICU and dissect, vacuum or acid-burn the infant in the NICU.

Then we would ask, "Why then, do we legally allow people in many places to do this to five-month and older babies in the womb?"

 

[Marisa]

I was answering the question. Perhaps next we might consider how much everyone loves little babies, even the ones in the hospital born months premature. Now we can consider whether we would enter the NICU and dissect, vacuum or acid-burn the infant in the NICU.

Then we would ask, "Why then, do we legally allow people in many places to do this to five-month and older babies in the womb?"

We already have legislation regarding late term abortions. Federal, at that. Please bring your argument current with present law.

 

[McBell]

I was answering the question. Perhaps next we might consider how much everyone loves little babies, even the ones in the hospital born months premature. Now we can consider whether we would enter the NICU and dissect, vacuum or acid-burn the infant in the NICU.

Then we would ask, "Why then, do we legally allow people in many places to do this to five-month and older babies in the womb?"

Actually, I would ask what year you think it is because there have been laws against late term abortions for quite a while.

 

[suncowiam]

Just posting a related story...

Raped 10-Year-Old Denied Abortion - The Daily Beast

 

[Marisa]

Just posting a related story...

Raped 10-Year-Old Denied Abortion - The Daily Beast

Yep. Criminalizing abortion just creates criminals. And it turns women who suffer abortions into potential criminals until they can prove that they didn't obtain an illegal abortion. For consideration:

The case in Ireland a while back wherein a pregnant woman was allowed to die in the ER waiting room from the miscarriage that was killing her (yes, a miscarriage can kill or render permanently infertile) because of the country's strict anti-abortion laws (a D&C would have saved her).
Miscarrying woman denied an abortion dies in Ireland - World - CBC News

The case in Texas where a brain dead woman was kept alive by the state and against her husbands wishes because she was pregnant.
Death of Marlise Muñoz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are plenty more. This is the point that often gets lost in this conversation, of what deleterious effects criminalizing abortion will have.

 

[Mycroft]

10 Year old raped, needs abortion

So a 10 year old is raped and becomes pregnant as a result. She should be able to get an abortion, plain and simple. No ten year old should be put through the trauma of childbirth without being adequately prepared and equipped to do so in the same way adults are.

But please, do carry on with your Dark Age morality.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually, I would ask what year you think it is because there have been laws against late term abortions for quite a while.

I said five months and older.

 

[BilliardsBall]

10 Year old raped, needs abortion

So a 10 year old is raped and becomes pregnant as a result. She should be able to get an abortion, plain and simple. No ten year old should be put through the trauma of childbirth without being adequately prepared and equipped to do so in the same way adults are.

But please, do carry on with your Dark Age morality.

You must be for abstinence for young people, then, as well? That would be a consistent stance with what you just said. There are numerous 12-year-olds having intercourse who are not being raped.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You must be for abstinence for young people, then, as well? That would be a consistent stance with what you just said. There are numerous 12-year-olds having intercourse who are not being raped.

Typically, kids under the age of 13 who find themselves with STI's and/or pregnancy are discovered to have been victims of sexual assault. There are outliers, of course, in any situation. But the majority of cases of underage pregnancy and STI's are resulting from rape at the hands of a family member or trusted adult.

Pregnancy of underage girls are at a higher rate of infant and maternal mortality than women over 18-19. Bodies have not completely developed yet, in spite of the ability to gestate somewhat. It's like the difference between someone who's pre-frontal cortex in their mid-20s on average will act less impulsively than a teenager, hence insurance rates in the U.S. are higher for teen drivers than adult drivers over 25.

Underage girls who are pregnant will suffer more than adult women in pregnancy, labor, and childbirth. But rather than take sex away as any option for teens (typically teens begin consensual sex with peers around 15-17), I say treat it like learning to drive. It's a huge responsibility to drive a car and to learn safe driving and to know what to be aware of. Don't text and drive. Don't drink and drive. Follow the rules of the road for your safety and for everyone elses safety.

With sex, be aware of the risks. Don't try to have sex with somebody who isn't consenting (learn what consent is first and foremost). Use protection. Be aware of who you are having sex with in case their is greater risk for STI's if they are not disclosing sexual activity with others or are not disclosing their sexual health status.

When there is comprehensive sex education and greater support for teens, as well as greater support for adult men and women, to utilize accessible contraceptives, the number of unwanted pregnancies go down significantly. Less unwanted pregnancies. Less elective abortions.

 

[viole]

You must be for abstinence for young people, then, as well? That would be a consistent stance with what you just said. There are numerous 12-year-olds having intercourse who are not being raped.

You seem to object abortion based on the age of the embryo and whether it was the result of a volunteer sexual act. In order for your objection to be meaningful, you should not object the abortion of embryos which are either

1) a few days old
2) the result of rape

Correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Marisa]

I said five months and older.

And you've been alerted that legislation regarding late term abortion, which is what aborting a 5 month or older fetus would be, already exists.

 

[Marisa]

You must be for abstinence for young people, then, as well? That would be a consistent stance with what you just said. There are numerous 12-year-olds having intercourse who are not being raped.

That's quite an assumptive leap of judgment to have made. Most of us in the Pro-Choice camp are extremely favorable to competent sex education; indeed it's been my experience that the most strident voices against choice are also strident in their condemnation of not just sex education but contraception access as well.