If she was claiming for children that didn't exist, that would be fraud... but she actually had the children she was claiming for. If she never lied to get her benefits, where's the fraud?
"Stupid" is not generally illegal.
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Abortion
- Thread starter Mycroft
- Start date
"Stupid" is not generally illegal.
NO, stupid is not illegal but I can attest to the fact that there are many people in prison who are just that, stupid. And IMO, the woman was having children to get more money, and I find that immoral, unethical and just plain wrong. Shall we allow this person to have one child a year for 20 or so years to get more money or try to teach her a better way of life? And personally, I don;t really feel like supporting her forever either.
I get that you don't like it, and that you think her actions should be illegal. THIS IS IRRELEVANT TO MY QUESTION.
I wanted to find out from BSM1 what grounds - under CURRENT law - the judge could have used to send her to prison.
Unless you have some insight into this question, I DON'T CARE about what you have to say.
McBell
Unbound
So, in a nutshell, you are saying people should be jailed for using loopholes?
Does this include all loopholes or just the loopholes you dislike?
Vishvavajra
Active Member
Someone could write a book about this. But in short, it has to do with the objectification of women and subordination of their desires and autonomy in favor of their perceived biological role as sexual/reproductive receptacles. Add to that a hefty dose of victim blaming and the assumption that consent is either implicit or irrelevant, and you've got either one, depending how you skin it. But I don't really think the anti-abortion culture and rape culture are fundamentally different. They're both products of fundamental attitudes towards women and what they're for. They're coming from exactly the same place.
This is rather vague, & smacks of demonization.
It's wrong in the same way that calling abortion "murder" is wrong.
I see major distinctions between the two.
The pro-life crowd believes that the fetus is a human being, with all the accompanying rights of one already born. If both the mother & fetus have rights to bodily autonomy, then it's reasonable to impose the burden of carrying the fetus to term upon the mother, because for the fetus to die would be the greater loss. I don't share their premises & conclusions (I'm pro-choice), but nonetheless, I find this line of thought reasonable.
Rape is radically different in that one person subjugates another without any life being saved. Tis coercion & assault for personal mere whim.
Is it about about women's subordination, as you say? I say no. "Subordination" is a more general problem, ie, something which society will impose upon all, but there will be differences upon affects upon each gender. We tend to focus upon women as the victims, while ignoring that men endure the same phenomenon of societal demands of sacrificing one's liberty for some perceived greater good, eg, bearing the burden of fighting in wars (to this day, we are still the only ones who must register for the draft), giving police the power to act with impunity. Bodily autonomy concerns everyone.... male, female & TWE.
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In my case, I'm the product of a rape incidence. I'm certainly not glad she got raped. I am glad that despite those circumstances she chose to give birth to me anyway, Yes it was a very hard choice for her. She had to deal with being pregnant, unmarried and working as a waitress. She chose to allow me to live in spite of the hardships she had to deal with. Because of the sacrifice she made I'm here and have my own family and friends,
She told me she was on the way to terminate me. However she had a change of heart. She decided the circumstances of my birth were not my fault, She decided to face the hardships and allow me to live.
I am grateful for her choice.
Marisa
Well-Known Member
I'm 48, which is no great accomplishment on its own, but I grew up listening to the racist rhetoric all my life. I can't speak to all states, but I can say racism is alive and well in Texas and Arkansas (where my mom was from) and, from the people I've met, Alabama and Mississippi. It disgusts me that often my kneejerk deepest thoughts are something that I have needed to teach myself are inappropriate, but those comments play like a tape recorder in the recesses of my mind.
I agree. The premise of a woman's mere existence is that her body is for "our" use first and foremost.
Not her actions.
Not her voice.
Not her decisions.
Her body in and of itself must exist for "our" use when we see fit. Her desire for her own bodily organs (in particular her reproductive system) are secondary, are selfish, are irresponsible.
She must defer her organs to an unborn fetus.
She must defer her organs to an out-of-control and aggressive predator if she did not take enough precautions. And she must take responsibility for having to defer her body in such a violent manner. Or for a spouse and do her "wifely duties" simply when it is wanted. If a spouse strays, the blame typically falls on a woman for not offering her body enough for her spouse's satisfaction.
She is only responsible enough for her organs as what somebody else wants from them.
According to the culture.
I see exactly where you're coming from, and I agree. I might add that a woman's body....just it's mere existence regardless of age, aesthetic, skin color, religious background, class, educational background....only belongs to her within reason according to culture and prevailing norms. At a certain point, she is expected to defer the use of her bodily organs for somebody else's survival, benefit, or pleasure. But overall, her body is understood to belong to somebody else at some point in her life, and she is expected to understand that and appreciate that.
To take ownership of her own body is considered a radical act.
To take ownership of her own body without apology is considered naive, myopic, scandalous, selfish, and irresponsible.
Hence, rape culture.
Marisa
Well-Known Member
Marisa
Well-Known Member
But don’t get hung up on the terminology. Don’t concentrate on the words that offend you and ignore what they’re pointing to — the words “rape culture” aren’t the problem. The reality they describe is the problem.
A Gentlemen’s Guide To Rape Culture — Human Parts — Medium
A Gentlemen’s Guide To Rape Culture — Human Parts — Medium
No. I am saying that in some rare cases there should be limits of some kind but frankly, the tone of this thread has become something I am really not vested in. The tone here is at best, contentious. Carry on.
I, thankfully, did not grow hearing any of that, My mother is NA and my father was from Scotland. But I do hear you about hearing it nonetheless. Thankfully again, none of that type of thing ever was a part of my life. In fact, when my father took us to DC when I was a child, a guide took us to Alexandria and pointed out where the 'chocolate people' lived. Dad fired him on the spot and got us a cab.
It's a contentious subject.
If a person refuses to donate their organs, it doesn't matter if those organs would save a life - they get buried or cremated. We treat the bodily security of a corpse as more important than a person's right to life.
Denial of the right of bodily security to pregnant women means, effectively, devaluing these people below the level of a corpse... even if we pretend that a fetus is a person.
The man or woman who needs a heart or lung transplant is very much a thinking, feeling person. Not only that, but they can clearly express that they want to live. Many people die every year for want of an organ donation because even a corpse's bodily security trumps your or my right to life.
When you denigrate all the women I know by refusing them even the rights we grant to the dead, why would you be surprised when things get heated?
True.
Any pro-life folks in favor of organ harvesting? In any circumstance? From any living or dead person? Prisoners? People in a coma? How about just bone marrow donation? Plasma or blood donation? Can't we tell somebody that they MUST donate use of their organs or something as convenient and quick as their blood for the life of someone else?
Vishvavajra
Active Member
It's unthinkable because 1) it might happen to non-women, and 2) it doesn't punish anybody for having sex, which is what's really important.
McBell
Unbound
My apologies.
I was unaware that merely asking questions was so contentious.
Sigh... No, I am the one who was wrong. It is a hot button topic, particularly because I was raped and impregnated by that act. I'm sorry for my rudeness here. But I really feel I'd rather not get involved any further. Thanks.
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No. I am saying that in some rare cases there should be limits of some kind but frankly, the tone of this thread has become something I am really not vested in. The tone here is at best, contentious. Carry on.
It's a contentious subject.
If a person refuses to donate their organs, it doesn't matter if those organs would save a life - they get buried or cremated. We treat the bodily security of a corpse as more important than a person's right to life.
Denial of the right of bodily security to pregnant women means, effectively, devaluing these people below the level of a corpse... even if we pretend that a fetus is a person.
The man or woman who needs a heart or lung transplant is very much a thinking, feeling person. Not only that, but they can clearly express that they want to live. Many people die every year for want of an organ donation because even a corpse's bodily security trumps your or my right to life.
When you denigrate all the women I know by refusing them even the rights we grant to the dead, why would you be surprised when things get heated?
As I said, I apologize for my rudeness and abruptness. I don't agree that your argument is comparable howvever as I just said, this is a difficult topic for me and perhaps I should recuse myself from it.
No. I am saying that in some rare cases there should be limits of some kind but frankly, the tone of this thread has become something I am really not vested in. The tone here is at best, contentious. Carry on.
It's a contentious subject.
If a person refuses to donate their organs, it doesn't matter if those organs would save a life - they get buried or cremated. We treat the bodily security of a corpse as more important than a person's right to life.
Denial of the right of bodily security to pregnant women means, effectively, devaluing these people below the level of a corpse... even if we pretend that a fetus is a person.
The man or woman who needs a heart or lung transplant is very much a thinking, feeling person. Not only that, but they can clearly express that they want to live. Many people die every year for want of an organ donation because even a corpse's bodily security trumps your or my right to life.
When you denigrate all the women I know by refusing them even the rights we grant to the dead, why would you be surprised when things get heated?
As I said, I apologize for my rudeness and abruptness. I don't agree that your argument is comparable howvever as I just said, this is a difficult topic for me and perhaps I should recuse myself from it.
stevevw
Member
God is no more responsible for the abortion as he would be for a heart attack or being hit by a car. It is a part of life and the choices and actions of humans not God. There are many reasons why a woman may abort a fetus/baby. Sometimes its because of lifestyle or age, sometimes it just happens from some unknown cause where something has gone wrong. But one thing I do know is that most women if they know they are pregnant and lost their baby are upset and grieve like they have lost a child.
This to me shows that they are carrying a life as they know more than anyone because they are the ones attached to this little being inside them. Its OK for people to make all the justifications for having an abortion but in the end its the women who suffer. There is a high rate of depression, and other mental and emotional problems when women have abortions. So despite what people say its the reality of what they actually end up going through is what really shows whats going on.
This to me shows that they are carrying a life as they know more than anyone because they are the ones attached to this little being inside them. Its OK for people to make all the justifications for having an abortion but in the end its the women who suffer. There is a high rate of depression, and other mental and emotional problems when women have abortions. So despite what people say its the reality of what they actually end up going through is what really shows whats going on.