Abortion

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, Although I'm sure there are plenty out there who do compare abortion to murder.
My point was that abortion is a moral choice, not a religious one.
Nowhere in any religion that I know have I heard any commands or laws or even suggestions about being either Pro or Anti-Abortion.

Every person I've ever encountered who called abortion "murder" justified this position with religious beliefs about when "ensoulment" occurs.

And they are objectively wrong, because a fetus isn't viable before a certain point that can be determined medically.



Religion and morality overlap quite often. At least in mainstream Islamic thought, abortion is viewed as a sin (except in cases where the mother's life would be put at risk without abortion) because fetuses supposedly have souls from the moment of conception.

Another Muslim poster in this thread said something about how fetuses receive souls at 120 days. From other posters I've read in the past, I thought that was the mainstream Muslim view... no?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Another Muslim poster in this thread said something about how fetuses receive souls at 120 days. From other posters I've read in the past, I thought that was the mainstream Muslim view... no?

Yes, but there are Islamic scholars who take the position that abortion is a sin even at the beginning of conception because it takes away the life of a supposed person. This is what I meant by "soul"; they view zygotes as a person in the making that has a right to life, so to speak. Not all Islamic scholars or Muslims hold this belief, but many of them do.

 

[Marisa]

To the three of you so charmed by my naivete --

The point being –
This modern society who considers themselves to be so compassionate puts greater value on an unborn eagle than it does on child in the womb. Far more than 5,000 late term abortion babies a year are killed that could easily have lived outside the womb. Some alive on the abortion table after removed are then killed. And that is considered a harmless act by our nation, yet step on a bird egg and it’s a major crime. It’s just as horrifying as other 20th century atrocities, but I suppose our refined appearances masks it so well.

Still no one can justify a 9 month old “fetus” murdered and it’s all good, and a one day old newborn in a dumpster and that poor mother is hated by the TV public and gets a year in jail. I’m sure God agrees with all this.

I took your meaning from your original comment but didn't respond despite you having used a poor analogy because it's not my intention to talk you out of your opinion. But here's why you don't want to use that analogy again: eagles have only relatively recently come off the endangered species list. There's no harm in your personal opinion until you decide that everyone must adopt it.

 

[thau]

I took your meaning from your original comment but didn't respond despite you having used a poor analogy because it's not my intention to talk you out of your opinion. But here's why you don't want to use that analogy again: eagles have only relatively recently come off the endangered species list. There's no harm in your personal opinion until you decide that everyone must adopt it.

How strange.
All ideas and all laws are based on the opinions of the many. Does your opinion reign supreme because it is your opinion?
It was the opinions of five Supreme Court judges, not God's, who decided abortion was "constitutional." Big deal. Many say they are wrong.

 

[Marisa]

How strange.
All ideas and all laws are based on the opinions of the many. Does your opinion reign supreme because it is your opinion?

Certainly not. But are you aware that both our opinions are protected equally by allowing each of us to make the choice for ourselves?

It was the opinions of five Supreme Court judges, not God's, who decided abortion was "constitutional." Big deal. Many say they are wrong.

Nobody's god sits on the Supreme Court.

 

[thau]

Certainly not. But are you aware that both our opinions are protected equally by allowing each of us to make the choice for ourselves?

No, your opinion nor mine counts when it is trumped by our laws. You do not have the choice to speed, smoke pot or engage a prostitute. Even if you think it is perfectly fine it remains a crime.

I say it is a crime, even murder, to take the life of a late term pregnancy. Because it is inhumane. And if that became the law then your choice or opinion would no longer matter would it?

Nobody's god sits on the Supreme Court.

You can say that again.

 

[Marisa]

No, your opinion nor mine counts when it is trumped by our laws. You do not have the choice to speed, smoke pot or engage a prostitute. Even if you think it is perfectly fine it remains a crime.

Of course not. However, you are aware that there are places where smoking pot and engaging prostitutes are completely legal, correct?

I say it is a crime, even murder, to take the life of a late term pregnancy. Because it is inhumane. And if that became the law then your choice or opinion would no longer matter would it?

And now you reveal yourself as having wandered into a rather extension conversation rather toward it's end, and we've already covered late term abortion. To persist in bringing this subject up you must be unaware that this question is legally addressed. What we are discussing here is early term elective abortions, which remain legal but challenged.

 

[Nietzsche]

It was the opinions of five Supreme Court judges, not God's, who decided abortion was "constitutional." Big deal. Many say they are wrong.

Perhaps this argument would hold water if God would come down and you know, clarify some laws for those of us living in the 21st century. But he doesn't, or at the very least he hasn't. Until such a time, I'm happy to trust in the Supreme Court. They might not be omniscient or perfect, but they at least make the effort to govern & guide society, unlike YHWH, who we've seen not hide nor hair of since atleast 609CE(that's when YHWH and Muhammad supposedly had a chit-chat). And if you don't think Muhammad was divinely inspired or instructed, we're gonna have to go back even further.

 

[thau]

Perhaps this argument would hold water if God would come down and you know, clarify some laws for those of us living in the 21st century. But he doesn't, or at the very least he hasn't. Until such a time, I'm happy to trust in the Supreme Court. They might not be omniscient or perfect, but they at least make the effort to govern & guide society, unlike YHWH, who we've seen not hide nor hair of since atleast 609CE(that's when YHWH and Muhammad supposedly had a chit-chat). And if you don't think Muhammad was divinely inspired or instructed, we're gonna have to go back even further.

Yes, we surely have to go back further than Muhammad. I see no empirical evidence of his being visited by the Divine One, or even of the goodness his "revelations" have visited upon the world.

I am fine with your position, at least, I understand why you think that. Of course, for me I have witnessed God's presence in a myriad of ways including many divine manifestations. So that is a game changer for me. To turn my back on what I know is true would be fatal.

Man surely must rely on his own wits and natural moral law within to try to guide humanity. But that is superseded once gifted with the truth and the Word. I cannot tell you why G-d selected the Jews as the vehicle for His revelation, but He surely did. Pagans and the blind may be judged far differently.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

This modern society who considers themselves to be so compassionate puts greater value on an unborn eagle than it does on child in the womb. Far more than 5,000 late term abortion babies a year are killed that could easily have lived outside the womb. Some alive on the abortion table after removed are then killed. And that is considered a harmless act by our nation, yet step on a bird egg and it’s a major crime. It’s just as horrifying as other 20th century atrocities, but I suppose our refined appearances masks it so well.

Late term abortion is rarer, and a lot of people disagree with it when it gets late. At that point the decision to do it I'm sure has multiplied in unpleasantness for everyone involved. That said, you still aren't the mother eagle to make a decision for her. It ought to be a crime because it didn't want you to do it.

 

[Nietzsche]

Yes, we surely have to go back further than Muhammad. I see no empirical evidence of his being visited by the Divine One, or even of the goodness his "revelations" have visited upon the world.

I hope you recognize the irony of that statement.

I am fine with your position, at least, I understand why you think that. Of course, for me I have witnessed God's presence in a myriad of ways including many divine manifestations. So that is a game changer for me. To turn my back on what I know is true would be fatal.

You will find people, in every faith, just as devout & convinced as you are. Some perhaps even more so. So you will forgive me, then, for while I don't doubt the sincerity of your claims at all, I very much doubt their origin.

Man surely must rely on his own wits and natural moral law within to try to guide humanity. But that is superseded once gifted with the truth and the Word. I cannot tell you why G-d selected the Jews as the vehicle for His revelation, but He surely did. Pagans and the blind may be judged far differently.

Or perhaps your God reached out towards the Israelites because that was all he intended to reach.

 

[thau]

I hope you recognize the irony of that statement.


You will find people, in every faith, just as devout & convinced as you are. Some perhaps even more so. So you will forgive me, then, for while I don't doubt the sincerity of your claims at all, I very much doubt their origin.


Or perhaps your God reached out towards the Israelites because that was all he intended to reach.

Yes, I understand the irony except it is not irony for me. There is only God, one true God. And if it is the G-d of the Jewish nation, then this G-d is also the God of the Christian faith. I am convinced via all the signs and wonders that have followed since the life of Jesus Christ that it is a fact. And given that, then this God makes it clear there is no other.

Now God may have allowed some degree of spiritual effect in the cause of eastern religions, et al., even in their prayers, but that does not change things all that much. The only God listening to them is the Judeo-Christian God. It may also be the adversary of God, the devil, has played some role in all of this.

But as to your suggestion G-d may have only intended to witness to the Jews alone, their very Holy Book says otherwise.

Isaiah 49:6 “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

 

[McBell]

Far more than 5,000 late term abortion babies a year are killed that could easily have lived outside the womb.

Source please.

Some alive on the abortion table after removed are then killed.

Source please

And that is considered a harmless act by our nation, yet step on a bird egg and it’s a major crime. It’s just as horrifying as other 20th century atrocities, but I suppose our refined appearances masks it so well.

Considered a harmless act?
Are you sure you are not merely attempting an appeal to emotion?

Still no one can justify a 9 month old “fetus” murdered and it’s all good, and a one day old newborn in a dumpster and that poor mother is hated by the TV public and gets a year in jail. I’m sure God agrees with all this.

Late term abortions are illegal unless for medical reasons.
So, yes, outside of for medical reasons, aborting a 9 month fetus is murder.


A year in jail for child abandonment?
Source please.

 

[McBell]

How strange.
All ideas and all laws are based on the opinions of the many.

except Roe vs Wade.

I can list several other laws that were against the opinions of the many.
Womens rights.
Inter-racial marriage.

It was the opinions of five Supreme Court judges, not God's, who decided abortion was "constitutional." Big deal. Many say they are wrong.

Out of curiousity...
Whose god should we listen to for our laws?
Yours?
Mine?
ISIS?

 

[McBell]

No, your opinion nor mine counts when it is trumped by our laws. You do not have the choice to speed, smoke pot or engage a prostitute. Even if you think it is perfectly fine it remains a crime.

Bull pucky.
You do to have the choice.
What do you think "criminals" are?

I say it is a crime, even murder, to take the life of a late term pregnancy.

You should really get caught up on the current abortion laws so you will stop looking the fool.

Because it is inhumane. And if that became the law then your choice or opinion would no longer matter would it?

It would matter the same as it does now.

You can say that again.

Nobody's god sits on the Supreme Court.
And that is a good thing.

 

[McBell]

Of course, for me I have witnessed God's presence in a myriad of ways including many divine manifestations.

Which would be fine if everyone who claims to have witnessed God's presence" could agree on what god says....

Man surely must rely on his own wits and natural moral law within to try to guide humanity.

That is the fault of god, not man.

But that is superseded once gifted with the truth and the Word.

Again, WHICH truth?

 

[thau]

Which would be fine if everyone who claims to have witnessed God's presence" could agree on what god says....

me: Far more than 5,000 late term abortion babies a year are killed that could easily have lived outside the womb.

>>Source please.<<

300 Doctors and 275 Abortion Clinics Do Abortions After 20 Weeks, Many After 24 Weeks | LifeNews.com
[excerpt]
[Below is a portion of a memo Johnson wrote during the first Congressional battle on the Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act that answers the questions on the number of late abortions and late-term abortion practitioners:

In 1995-96, many mainstream media outlets reported as unvarnished fact the claims of pro-abortion advocacy groups that partial-birth abortions were very “rare” and performed only in acute medical circumstances. These claims were later proven false by congressional investigators and investigative journalists, and were even ultimately repudiated by the head of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers (NCAP), who described the claims as a concocted “party line.”

NCAP Executive Director Ron Fitzsimmons admitted to the New York Times that the partial-birth abortion method was used 3,000-5,000 times annually, and “in the vast majority of cases” on “a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along” (New York Times, Feb. 26, 1997).]


me: Some alive on the abortion table after removed are then killed.

>>Source please<<

362 Infants Born Alive as Result of Botched Abortions Died in Last Decade | American Center for Law and Justice


me: Still no one can justify a 9 month old “fetus” murdered and it’s all good, and a one day old newborn in a dumpster and that poor mother is hated by the TV public and gets a year in jail. I’m sure God agrees with all this.

>>Late term abortions are illegal unless for medical reasons.<<

Partially true but the lateness extends for most states past when a fetus could survive outside the womb (around 20 weeks). Nine states still have no time of gestation restrictions as to when one can get an abortion. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/18/us/politics/abortion-restrictions.html


>> A year in jail for child abandonment? Source please. <<

I am speaking when the child dies which is often how they are found. There are many accounts of this. I read only one where the woman received 30 years in Indianapolis. I’m sure it’s common to get jail time. Mother who abandoned newborn in trash sentenced to 30 years - 13 WTHR Indianapolis


me: How strange. All ideas and all laws are based on the opinions of the many.

>>except Roe vs Wade. I can list several other laws that were against the opinions of the many. Womens rights. Inter-racial marriage.<<

Yeah, so what? It was the judge’s opinion instead of the many. But it’s always someone’s opinion unless the facts are undeniable.


me: It was the opinions of five Supreme Court judges, not God's, who decided abortion was "constitutional." Big deal. Many say they are wrong.

>>Out of curiousity... Whose god should we listen to for our laws? Yours? Mine? ISIS? <<

You are not following. All I am saying is that for some of us God is as real as we are. And they are clearly going against what this God teaches. (That’s me or the Church talking, not the court. God’s guidance is paramount in all decisions in life.) I am not saying the Supreme Court is obligated to seek God’s teachings in their decisions. But I am saying very unwise to not do so. They don’t have to insert it their written arguments.


me: No, your opinion nor mine counts when it is trumped by our laws. You do not have the choice to speed, smoke pot or engage a prostitute. Even if you think it is perfectly fine it remains a crime.

>>Bull pucky. You do to have the choice. What do you think "criminals" are?<<

The point is simple --- If abortion were illegal, it would be a crime to do so. But like pot or prostitutes, that does not prevent one from still choosing to have one. I get it. People enact laws to prevent and punish, they cannot guarantee there will still not be violators.


me: I say it is a crime, even murder, to take the life of a late term pregnancy.

>>You should really get caught up on the current abortion laws so you will stop looking the fool.<<

Why? I do not care if the laws call it murder or not, I am calling it murder, as is the Church and I would wager to guess so is God.


me: Of course, for me I have witnessed God's presence in a myriad of ways including many divine manifestations.

>>Which would be fine if everyone who claims to have witnessed God's presence" could agree on what god says....<<

Good point, Mesteminia. It has merit. My best counter is that I stand by the Catholic Church where or when there is disagreement among Christian teachings or doctrines. Interesting to note, virtually all great Christian miracles, heavily witnessed and highly documented, are of Catholic origin.


me: Man surely must rely on his own wits and natural moral law within to try to guide humanity.

>>That is the fault of god, not man.<<

You can still do something about it. We all have free will.


me: But that is superseded once gifted with the truth and the Word.

>>Again, WHICH truth? <<

Catholic truth.

 

[Nietzsche]

Good point, Mesteminia. It has merit. My best counter is that I stand by the Catholic Church where or when there is disagreement among Christian teachings or doctrines. Interesting to note, virtually all great Christian miracles, heavily witnessed and highly documented, are of Catholic origin.

Well of course Catholicism would have the most. It is the single-largest Christian sect and has been for at least one-thousand years, and it was the only game in town for large swathes of the planet until the Reformation. You might as well say that largest number of people who wear lederhosen are of Bavarian origin. Of course they are.

 

[Marisa]

Partially true but the lateness extends for most states past when a fetus could survive outside the womb (around 20 weeks). Nine states still have no time of gestation restrictions as to when one can get an abortion. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/18/us/politics/abortion-restrictions.html

False. This is a huge piece of propaganda pushed by, ironically, CPC's and the anti-choice community. The article you posted does not support your assertion that medical viability is 20 weeks.

" In the United States viability presently occurs at approximately 24 weeks of gestational age (Chervenak, L.B. McCullough; Textbook of Perinatal Medicine, 1998)."
Limits of fetal viability and its enhancement. - PubMed - NCBI

"Recently, among resuscitated infants who weighed >400 g at birth, ∼6% of 22 weeks' EGA infants and 26% of 23 weeks' EGA infants were reported to survive to NICU discharge, which illustrates a contemporary definition of human viability.50"
Limits of Human Viability in the United States: A Medicolegal Review

 

[enthused antagonist]

The law states there has to be breath. Fetal tissue does not breathe. There is rudimentary life but it cannot be sustained outside the uterus. Iow, it is symbiotic or, to couch it in lay man's terms, parasitic. That is not independent life. It requires another to live. After birth, legally and biologically, t

Independent breathing or bodily functikn don't quantify life or necce
Is abortion in the first