Abortion

[Selinagirl]

My apologies for clarity issues, but the part about beginning of life was not directed at you.


Rape, yes, though I believe that rape should provide for a successful emotional duress as a mitigating factor defense. Medical necessity, no. Social discrimination? Really?


No, I don't want to be judged for or associated with the deeds and thoughts of people who are not myself. I do not believe that unreasonable.


Of course I am wrong to call them murderers under U.S. law, that was never the intent. The Muslims who stone adulterers and hang homosexuals are also not classed as murderers under their laws. I am speaking from my understanding of a higher law.

As well, I did say I want them to face the same justice system, with those very checks and considerations you brought up.

Addressing the bold statement, what a twisted and corrupted understanding of help we are teaching these days. There are abortions which likely save the life of the mother; they account for less than 3% of abortions. Rather than me using the minority to paint the majority as something else, you are using an extreme minority to defend the majority of a horrid and heinous practice: elective abortion for convenience. That, I proudly call murder.


Other than the anticipated bigotry I expect to come, what has that to do with anything?


There it is! By the way, the difference in men and women who identify as pro-life is negligible(50% men and 46% women) in the U.S.


Because their actions are evil.


One certainly hopes not, for that would surely be as close to an irredeemably failed person as you can get.


Please. Where have I appealed to God to say how the law should be? The prime motivation for 75+% of abortions is that it would negatively effect the lifestyle or plans of recipient. Color me a fanatic if you wish, but no, I don't respect that motivation.

I edited my former post while you answered. It matches to your last senteces. The social systems in the US are a bad joke. And there is a difference between "negative effect on their lifestyle" and "driving somebody to poverty".

Please explain me, what you mean with "rape should provide for a successfull emotional duress as a mitigating factor defense". I tried it with google translation but it still makes no sense to me. It sounds as if you mean beeing raped will stenghten the psyche of a woman, that couldn't be right and i know that you don't mean this.(Or, at least, i HOPE you don't mean it that way.)

"Because their deeds are evil" proves me. You don't care for the children, it is only about morals. Men can't take care, they only can fight.

Here in Germany, ProLife demonstrations are often supported by neonazis. I judge you only for the people you ally with, because this is also a decision that you make.

 

[Mister Emu]

You are as lazy as every man.

Men can't take care, they only can fight.

You may want to zip up, your sexism is showing.

And what is your motivation for beeing against abortion? You might say, to save the children. Do you have adopted children or are you working in an orphanage for free?

Or I mightn't. Your rhetoric is noted, and wasted. I cannot adopt children, being single and a student. I do not volunteer at an orphanage, just suicide counseling.

No, you go to demonstrate against abortions.

Here in Germany, ProLife demonstrations are often supported by neonazis. I judge you only for the people you ally with, because this is also a decision that you make.

No, I do not demonstrate. I have allied myself with no one.

You don't want to save the children because they are children of god and you love them. I think, you feel nothing for them.

I think you might want to abstain from future arm-chair(or computer-chair as it were) psychology before you embarrass yourself further.

No, you are doing it, because it is said in the Bible that you should do good work. Beeing against abortion is the easiest way for you to get to heaven otr be reborn or whatever.

Bwahaha! See the above sentence.

You are as lazy as every man.

As lazy as I may be, you can be damn sure if I got a woman pregnant that I would never be so lazy as to have the idea of killing the child, rather than working harder to support it, come anywhere close to my mind.

Are you at least willing to pay higher taxes to provide childcare, so that more single mums will decide to keep their baby?

Leftists and taxes... No, I support local charities and would support greater incentives to donate time and money to them if any legislature was for that.

Please explain me, what you mean with "rape should provide for a successfull emotional duress as a mitigating factor defense". I tried it with google translation but it still makes no sense to me. It sounds as if you mean beeing raped will stenghten the psyche of a woman, that couldn't be right and i know that you don't mean this.(Or, at least, i HOPE you don't mean it that way.)

Of course I don't mean that. I mean that the emotional duress of rape should be considered a mitigating factor when prosecuting, judging, and sentencing.

"Because their deeds are evil" proves me. You don't care for the children, it is only about morals

Of course it is about the morals, you don't judge and denounce good actions. You denounce evil ones. The acts in question are evil because they are killing innocent human life at its most vulnerable.

 

[JoStories]

Because what is moral for us is designed specifically for us, or rather we are designed for what is moral for us. Which is a truism: we are designed to behave congruent with the manner with which we are designed to behave.


You said we are responsible for any foreseeable outcomes of our decisions. It is a reasonable foreseeable outcome that for every x amount of money and time we do not donate to stopping death through hunger a certain amount of people will die as a result, of which a certain percentage will be children(a high one if I am to believe the information I have read).

God is responsible for miscarriage as you are responsible for child deaths due to hunger.

I don't believe either is responsible on any meaningful level.



Thank you for retracting it. As an addendum, I did not mean fair in the sense of not being mean, but fair as in a fair representation, as in actually reflecting the beliefs and ideas held by me and like-minded people.


I'm pretty sure I did answer the question. To reiterate: I think abortion doctors and recipients should face the same justice system as any other murderer and, while any unnecessary death is tragic, I don't worry overmuch for the workplace safety conditions of murderers.


Biology. I recommend you start there. You won't find a single scientific source on the human life cycle saying anything but that it starts at conception. And the idea of the scientific stance being that life begins with the first breath is, well, laughable.

Apparently, you simply can't answer. I ask yet again....should women be forced to use back alley abortion, risking death, to achieve an abortion? I don't care if you think they are murderers. I want to know if you think women should be made to return to getting one by people who could kill them. I am not sure how else to frame this question.

 

[McBell]

"Thou shalt not murder" is the correct translation from the Decalogue, since state-led punishment, including capital punishment, was lawful.

Manslaughter is not murder. Neither is state-sanctioned execution in the scriptures.

your point being?

Since abortion is legal and does not involve children, your claim that abortion is murdering a baby is nothing more than a sad attempt at appeal to emotion.

 

[Bunyip]

Apparently, you simply can't answer. I ask yet again....should women be forced to use back alley abortion, risking death, to achieve an abortion? I don't care if you think they are murderers. I want to know if you think women should be made to return to getting one by people who could kill them. I am not sure how else to frame this question.

This is the reality here. Society gets to decide whether abortions occur in a hospital or an alley - not if they occur at all.

 

[psychoslice]

My mum had two abortions, so if its good enough for her its good enough for me.

 

[Mister Emu]

Apparently, you simply can't answer. I ask yet again....should women be forced to use back alley abortion, risking death, to achieve an abortion? I don't care if you think they are murderers. I want to know if you think women should be made to return to getting one by people who could kill them. I am not sure how else to frame this question.

I did answer, twice now. I don't care if it isn't the answer you want, that it takes a little more thought than a simple yes or no, it is the answer you have been given and the only one you'll have from me.

This is the reality here. Society gets to decide whether abortions occur in a hospital or an alley - not if they occur at all.

The thrust of this observation being?

 

[Bunyip]

I did answer, twice now. I don't care if it isn't the answer you want, that it takes a little more thought than a simple yes or no, it is the answer you have been given and the only one you'll have from me.


The thrust of this observation being?

That if abortion is legal it will save lives, and banning stuff does not make it go away.

 

[psychoslice]

Abortion keeps the population down, and that's a good thing to me.

 

[Mister Emu]

That if abortion is legal it will save lives, and banning stuff does not make it go away.

I never like to presume, so thank you. I am understanding this to mean that you believe that because it will make abortions safer to perform and that because some people will always get abortions no matter the legality and danger therein, we should therefore give license to abortion. Is that correct?

 

[Bunyip]

I never like to presume, so thank you. I am understanding this to mean that you believe that because it will make abortions safer to perform and that because some people will always get abortions no matter the legality and danger therein, we should therefore give license to abortion. Is that correct?

Correct. When illegal abortions occur in alleys, when legal they occur in hospitals. Either way, they still occur. Prohibition has never successfully made any outlawed thing actually go away. It has a perfect 100% failure rate.

 

[Selinagirl]

You may want to zip up, your sexism is showing.

Or I mightn't. Your rhetoric is noted, and wasted. I cannot adopt children, being single and a student. I do not volunteer at an orphanage, just suicide counseling.

As lazy as I may be, you can be damn sure if I got a woman pregnant that I would never be so lazy as to have the idea of killing the child, rather than working harder to support it, come anywhere close to my mind.

Leftists and taxes... No, I support local charities and would support greater incentives to donate time and money to them if any legislature was for that.


Of course I don't mean that. I mean that the emotional duress of rape should be considered a mitigating factor when prosecuting, judging, and sentencing.

I'm sexist for the reason the society is sexist. Women have to work harder to support their children if they get one, but men can leave the women alone with the child, only paying a small alimentation. It's allways up to mum. You say it doesn't come to your mind if you had a pregnant girlfriend, but many men are forcing their pregnant girlfriends to abort by saying they would leave them if they don't. You say you are for prosecution. How would you judge a women that was forced to do it that way, and how would you judge a men doing this?

You still didn'r answer my question for maternity leave. Are mothers protected from beeing fired in the US? As you said "no" to higher taxes and state childcare i think you mean that employers shoul pay higher wages for mothers and let them work less time. That will lead to the fact that mothers will be fired if they are not protected by the law. And why you are against childcare like giving the children to a kindergarten?

You do suicide counselling? You're better than i thought. What do you say to a women that has psychic problems after an abortion, maybe even because she went through discrimination after doing it?

Apparently, you simply can't answer. I ask yet again....should women be forced to use back alley abortion, risking death, to achieve an abortion? I don't care if you think they are murderers. I want to know if you think women should be made to return to getting one by people who could kill them. I am not sure how else to frame this question.

JoStories, his answer is "Yes" because he is at least intelligent and knows, that prohibiting abortion does sink the rates but doesn't prevent it completely.

 

[JoStories]

This is the reality here. Society gets to decide whether abortions occur in a hospital or an alley - not if they occur at all.

I just woke up so forgive me if I seem obtuse but what exactly does that mean bunyip? You don't have legalized abortion?

 

[JoStories]

I'm sexist for the reason the society is sexist. Women have to work harder to support their children if they get one, but men can leave the women alone with the child, only paying a small alimentation. It's allways up to mum. You say it doesn't come to your mind if you had a pregnant girlfriend, but many men are forcing their pregnant girlfriends to abort by saying they would leave them if they don't. You say you are for prosecution. How would you judge a women that was forced to do it that way, and how would you judge a men doing this?

You still didn'r answer my question for maternity leave. Are mothers protected from beeing fired in the US? As you said "no" to higher taxes and state childcare i think you mean that employers shoul pay higher wages for mothers and let them work less time. That will lead to the fact that mothers will be fired if they are not protected by the law. And why you are against childcare like giving the children to a kindergarten?

You do suicide counselling? You're better than i thought. What do you say to a women that has psychic problems after an abortion, maybe even because she went through discrimination after doing it?


JoStories, his answer is "Yes" because he is at least intelligent and knows, that prohibiting abortion does sink the rates but doesn't prevent it completely.

Thanks Selina. I got that now. And just a side note dear, you're pretty wise for a young lady. I'm impressed at the depth of your understanding.

 

[Aiviu]

should women be forced to use back alley abortion, risking death, to achieve an abortion? I don't care if you think they are murderers. I want to know if you think women should be made to return to getting one by people who could kill them. I am not sure how else to frame this question.

Being forced is never a good idea.

 

[JoStories]

Being forced is never a good idea.

Exactly. It results in women being forced to do these antiquated procedures that did often result in infections, sterilization and even death. That this poster would support such a heinous thing is incomprehensible.

 

[Aiviu]

Exactly. It results in women being forced to do these antiquated procedures that did often result in infections, sterilization and even death. That this poster would support such a heinous thing is incomprehensible.

If its legal, at least there is a psychological consultant who always try to prevent the abortion in the first place.

 

[JoStories]

If its legal, at least there is a psychological consultant who always try to prevent the abortion in the first place.

And I agree. In som cases, such as rape, there should never be anyone telling the woman they can't have one. However abortion for birth control is something I personally find wrong. I think women should be more responsible in trying not to get pregnant. But still BC fails and I am very firmly pro choice. And yes, they should have counseling.

 

[Marisa]

Apparently, you simply can't answer. I ask yet again....should women be forced to use back alley abortion, risking death, to achieve an abortion? I don't care if you think they are murderers. I want to know if you think women should be made to return to getting one by people who could kill them. I am not sure how else to frame this question.

I think Emu did answer. Emu, if I understand his/her position correctly, doesn't want anyone obtaining an elective abortion for any reason and makes no mitigation room for instances where pregnancy occurs because of rape or when the pregnancy itself constitutes a credible danger to the mother's life. He does, however, have enough compassion to say that at the murder trial, having been raped should be factored into the sentencing phase of what he would call a murderer. He/she is very sad that some women will obtain unsafe, unsanitary Gosnell Clinic style abortions, but he's/she's not wasting any emotional energy fretting over it.

No, it is a tragedy the same as when any other murderer dies in the act of murder. Do I care overmuch for the hygienic and safety standards for murderers? Again, no.

The problem with this position is, of course, the case in Ireland, wherein a woman dying from a miscarrying fetus was allowed to do so by the hospital she was taken to because Ireland has a strict anti-abortion for any reason law. That country's strict anti-abortion law has now been changed and allows the life of the pregnant woman to be considered. So now, when doctors know that the fetus is miscarrying despite the fact that it still has a heartbeat (which was the hospital's defense), they can do the medically correct thing and not allow a human being to die waiting on a miracle.

The problem, as I see it, is that Emu loves his/her religion more than he/she has compassion for other people.

 

[Selinagirl]

I think Emu did answer. Emu, if I understand his/her position correctly, doesn't want anyone obtaining an elective abortion for any reason and makes no mitigation room for instances where pregnancy occurs because of rape or when the pregnancy itself constitutes a credible danger to the mother's life. He does, however, have enough compassion to say that at the murder trial, having been raped should be factored into the sentencing phase of what he would call a murderer. He/she is very sad that some women will obtain unsafe, unsanitary Gosnell Clinic style abortions, but he's/she's not wasting any emotional energy fretting over it.

The problem with this position is, of course, the case in Ireland, wherein a woman dying from a miscarrying fetus was allowed to do so by the hospital she was taken to because Ireland has a strict anti-abortion for any reason law. That country's strict anti-abortion law has now been changed and allows the life of the pregnant woman to be considered. So now, when doctors know that the fetus is miscarrying despite the fact that it still has a heartbeat (which was the hospital's defense), they can do the medically correct thing and not allow a human being to die waiting on a miracle.

The problem, as I see it, is that Emu loves his/her religion more than he/she has compassion for other people.

Just as I said, but Emu refuses that it is his religious feelings.