Abortion

[Marisa]

Just as I said, but Emu refuses that it is his religious feelings.

It's still wrong for you to press him on that. Emu's religious beliefs informs his opinions. It's not wrong for him to hold the personal opinion that elective abortion is immoral and I don't fault him for that. What is wrong is for anyone to presume that their opinion should constitute law. Laws exist to protect individual freedoms, and governments exist to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. The only way to protect Emu's opinion, while protecting the opinions of those of us who disagree, is by allowing each person the legal freedom to make the choice. Any person can restrict themselves further than the law requires. Emu's not correct because he holds some moral high ground any more than I am, the only difference between us is that I place an equal premium on the rights of a pregnant woman (hence the bodily autonomy argument) and seek to place no individual's right to life superior to another's (which would constitute special privilege).

It's also wrong for you to insist that Emu's gender disqualifies him from the conversation. Everyone can have an opinion on everything and the fact that a given malady can't or hasn't happened to a single individual doesn't make that person incapable of forming an opinion on it.

ETA: I don't think Emu is appealing to his religion though it's obvious his religious belief informs his opinion; but our laws shouldn't be predicated on what any supernatural being finds distasteful. Unless that supernatural being is ready to materialize and pick up a protest sign, they shouldn't figure into the writing of laws in a secular nation.

 

[BilliardsBall]

your point being?

Since abortion is legal and does not involve children, your claim that abortion is murdering a baby is nothing more than a sad attempt at appeal to emotion.

Mature people rely on fact above emotion. However, very mature people sometimes recognize when emotion is prodding them the right direction - a gut instinct. Some abortions are made or else averted based on emotion.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Mature people rely on fact above emotion. However, very mature people sometimes recognize when emotion is prodding them the right direction - a gut instinct. Some abortions are made or else averted based on emotion.

Well sure. But that's true with any major life decision, too. Elective abortions are no different when it comes to how people make these and other decisions. Whether it's reason or it's emotion, keeping one's health, finances, body, time, job status, family obligations intact are all motivations for a pregnant woman to terminate. And whether anyone on the outside wishes to demonize her or not for having such motivations, it's still her body to decide if a pregnancy is going to be carried to term or not.

 

[Selinagirl]

Do the US have a law for maternity leave or not?

 

[Marisa]

Do the US have a law for maternity leave or not?

US laws on this are not nearly as friendly as European laws.

Maternity leave in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Family and Medical Leave Act - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - U.S. Department of Labor

 

[Aiviu]

And I agree. In som cases, such as rape, there should never be anyone telling the woman they can't have one. However abortion for birth control is something I personally find wrong. I think women should be more responsible in trying not to get pregnant. But still BC fails and I am very firmly pro choice. And yes, they should have counseling.

Those who are about to do, are about to deconstruct who they are, because they already love what they have inside. Its about to estimate how much pressure oneself can take. Even in the ads everything is like a huge mental pressure. We are good, we are free, we are perfect, we are great, we are young, ... ... and then there are the morals everyone lays up on themself. Not to talk about the pressure from the society ... pressure pressure pressure ...

You not able to judge them. You want them to know where they can go.

 

[McBell]

Mature people rely on fact above emotion. However, very mature people sometimes recognize when emotion is prodding them the right direction - a gut instinct. Some abortions are made or else averted based on emotion.

To use dishonest tactics is using dishonest tactics.
Your appeal to emotion is a dishonest tactic.
Now, since you are now merely trying to justify your dishonesty....

 

[Mister Emu]

Correct. When illegal abortions occur in alleys, when legal they occur in hospitals. Either way, they still occur. Prohibition has never successfully made any outlawed thing actually go away. It has a perfect 100% failure rate.

I firmly disagree with this notion. I have no duty to ensure the safety of the performance of bad acts.

I'm sexist for the reason the society is sexist

Because you are bigoted and unreasonable?

Women have to work harder to support their children if they get one, but men can leave the women alone with the child, only paying a small alimentation. It's allways up to mum.

25% of your income isn't a small amount. No unreasonable or unfair, not small though.

How would you judge a women that was forced to do it that way, and how would you judge a men doing this?

Am I to be asked how I would judge every possible situation involving abortion?

And why you are against childcare like giving the children to a kindergarten?

What gave you that impression?

What do you say to a women that has psychic problems after an abortion, maybe even because she went through discrimination after doing it?

I'm not going to tell her she's a horrible person if that's what you think.

That this poster would support such a heinous thing is incomprehensible.

I think we both know that I do not support back-alley abortions.

If its legal, at least there is a psychological consultant who always try to prevent the abortion in the first place.

It is illegal in America to require a counseling consultation before abortion.

Emu, if I understand his/her position correctly, doesn't want anyone obtaining an elective abortion for any reason and makes no mitigation room for instances where pregnancy occurs because of rape or when the pregnancy itself constitutes a credible danger to the mother's life.

The problem with this position is,

The biggest problem with this being that I've specifically said that I don't consider abortion in the face of death as murder.

He does, however, have enough compassion to say that at the murder trial, having been raped should be factored into the sentencing phase of what he would call a murderer.

I said more than sentencing... I said prosecution, judgement, and sentencing.

It's not wrong for him to hold the personal opinion that elective abortion is immoral and I don't fault him for that. What is wrong is for anyone to presume that their opinion should constitute law.

We all have not just the right, but the obligation to protest society sanctioning evil. I'm not talking about something merely immoral. But pure evil in action.

Emu's not correct because he holds some moral high ground any more than I am, the only difference between us is that I place an equal premium on the rights of a pregnant woman (hence the bodily autonomy argument) and seek to place no individual's right to life superior to another's (which would constitute special privilege).

I do not place one's right to life over that of another. I place the right to life as the highest on the hierarchy of rights, so yes I believe it supersedes the bodily rights of the woman.

 

[Bunyip]

I firmly disagree with this notion. I have no duty to ensure the safety of the performance of bad acts.

What 'bad act'? And why would it be your duty to ensure it? Where did you get that idea from?

Because you are bigoted and unreasonable?


25% of your income isn't a small amount. No unreasonable or unfair, not small though.


Am I to be asked how I would judge every possible situation involving abortion?


What gave you that impression?


I'm not going to tell her she's a horrible person if that's what you think.


I think we both know that I do not support back-alley abortions.

Sorry, but that seems evasive. Would you prefer that a woman needing an abortion go to a hospital, or an alley? Say it was your daughter, she has an ectopic pregnancy and will die unless the foetus is aborted. Alley or clinic?

It is illegal in America to require a counseling consultation before abortion.



The biggest problem with this being that I've specifically said that I don't consider abortion in the face of death as murder.


I said more than sentencing... I said prosecution, judgement, and sentencing.


We all have not just the right, but the obligation to protest society sanctioning evil. I'm not talking about something merely immoral. But pure evil in action.


I do not place one's right to life over that of another. I place the right to life as the highest on the hierarchy of rights, so yes I believe it supersedes the bodily rights of the woman.

 

[Bunyip]

I just woke up so forgive me if I seem obtuse but what exactly does that mean bunyip? You don't have legalized abortion?

What I mean is that banning abortion does not magically make it go away. And yes we do have legalised abortion in Australia. A girl friend of mine became pregnant a few years ago. It was very unexpected, we were both older and she believed that she was infertile. The baby could not have been taken to full term because of her (and the foetus' s) health issues.
So it was with great regret and sadness that we sought an abortion. At the clinic a group of pro-life Christians gather every day to abuse the staff and clients of the clinic.
After the procedure, terrified and emotionally devastated she and I had to run the gauntlet through an unruly mob of pro-lifers calling us both child murderers.
She never quite recovered. She was a nurse who had spent 30 years caring for people and being characterised as a child murderer was more than she could take.

 

[McBell]

Am I to be asked how I would judge every possible situation involving abortion?

If your plan/goal is to put a blanket ban on every single type/kind/etc. abortion, then yes.

 

[Bunyip]

My apologies for clarity issues, but the part about beginning of life was not directed at you.


Rape, yes, though I believe that rape should provide for a successful emotional duress as a mitigating factor defense. Medical necessity, no. Social discrimination? Really?


No, I don't want to be judged for or associated with the deeds and thoughts of people who are not myself. I do not believe that unreasonable.


Of course I am wrong to call them murderers under U.S. law, that was never the intent. The Muslims who stone adulterers and hang homosexuals are also not classed as murderers under their laws. I am speaking from my understanding of a higher law.

As well, I did say I want them to face the same justice system, with those very checks and considerations you brought up.

Addressing the bold statement, what a twisted and corrupted understanding of help we are teaching these days. There are abortions which likely save the life of the mother; they account for less than 3% of abortions. Rather than me using the minority to paint the majority as something else, you are using an extreme minority to defend the majority of a horrid and heinous practice: elective abortion for convenience. That, I proudly call murder.


Other than the anticipated bigotry I expect to come, what has that to do with anything?


There it is! By the way, the difference in men and women who identify as pro-life is negligible(50% men and 46% women) in the U.S.


Because their actions are evil.


One certainly hopes not, for that would surely be as close to an irredeemably failed person as you can get.


Please. Where have I appealed to God to say how the law should be? The prime motivation for 75+% of abortions is that it would negatively effect the lifestyle or plans of recipient. Color me a fanatic if you wish, but no, I don't respect that motivation.

Sorry to doubt, but that seems a deeply misguided claim - where did you get that statistic from?

 

[Aiviu]

It is illegal in America to require a counseling consultation before abortion.

Really? ... Could you write me the legal or moral reasons why its illegal? If you dont mind of course.

 

[JoStories]

I think Emu did answer. Emu, if I understand his/her position correctly, doesn't want anyone obtaining an elective abortion for any reason and makes no mitigation room for instances where pregnancy occurs because of rape or when the pregnancy itself constitutes a credible danger to the mother's life. He does, however, have enough compassion to say that at the murder trial, having been raped should be factored into the sentencing phase of what he would call a murderer. He/she is very sad that some women will obtain unsafe, unsanitary Gosnell Clinic style abortions, but he's/she's not wasting any emotional energy fretting over it.

The problem with this position is, of course, the case in Ireland, wherein a woman dying from a miscarrying fetus was allowed to do so by the hospital she was taken to because Ireland has a strict anti-abortion for any reason law. That country's strict anti-abortion law has now been changed and allows the life of the pregnant woman to be considered. So now, when doctors know that the fetus is miscarrying despite the fact that it still has a heartbeat (which was the hospital's defense), they can do the medically correct thing and not allow a human being to die waiting on a miracle.

The problem, as I see it, is that Emu loves his/her religion more than he/she has compassion for other people.

Thanks Marisa for this but I disagree that he answered. I understand what he wrote which is reprehensible to me...a woman who has an abortion is a murderer??.....but what he didn't answer was forcing women back to finding alternative methods. He hemmed and hawed but never did answer. And yes, he loves a book more than people.

 

[JoStories]

Really? ... Could you write me the legal or moral reasons why its illegal? If you dont mind of course.

It's not illegal. He's nuts

 

[JoStories]

I firmly disagree with this notion. I have no duty to ensure the safety of the performance of bad acts.


Because you are bigoted and unreasonable?


25% of your income isn't a small amount. No unreasonable or unfair, not small though.


Am I to be asked how I would judge every possible situation involving abortion?


What gave you that impression?


I'm not going to tell her she's a horrible person if that's what you think.


I think we both know that I do not support back-alley abortions.


It is illegal in America to require a counseling consultation before abortion.



The biggest problem with this being that I've specifically said that I don't consider abortion in the face of death as murder.


I said more than sentencing... I said prosecution, judgement, and sentencing.


We all have not just the right, but the obligation to protest society sanctioning evil. I'm not talking about something merely immoral. But pure evil in action.


I do not place one's right to life over that of another. I place the right to life as the highest on the hierarchy of rights, so yes I believe it supersedes the bodily rights of the woman.

In no way is it illegal to have counseling before an abortion. Planned parenthood is all about counseling and many abortion clinics also offer counseling.
If you are against back alley abortion, yet advocate that women who wish to have one once you have outlawed them, you are therefore forcing to to use back alley abortions. There would be no other,alternative besides being forced to carry the fetus. And that is simply wrong.

 

[JoStories]

What I mean is that banning abortion does not magically make it go away. And yes we do have legalised abortion in Australia. A girl friend of mine became pregnant a few years ago. It was very unexpected, we were both older and she believed that she was infertile. The baby could not have been taken to full term because of her (and the foetus' s) health issues.
So it was with great regret and sadness that we sought an abortion. At the clinic a group of pro-life Christians gather every day to abuse the staff and clients of the clinic.
After the procedure, terrified and emotionally devastated she and I had to run the gauntlet through an unruly mob of pro-lifers calling us both child murderers.
She never quite recovered. She was a nurse who had spent 30 years caring for people and being characterised as a child murderer was more than she could take.

Bunyip, I'm so terribly sorry that you two had to endure that. I'm fully in favor of supporting all people's right to have their opinion but absolutely NOT at the expense of the woman's emotional state. What those people did was awful.

 

[SomeRandom]

What I mean is that banning abortion does not magically make it go away. And yes we do have legalised abortion in Australia. A girl friend of mine became pregnant a few years ago. It was very unexpected, we were both older and she believed that she was infertile. The baby could not have been taken to full term because of her (and the foetus' s) health issues.
So it was with great regret and sadness that we sought an abortion. At the clinic a group of pro-life Christians gather every day to abuse the staff and clients of the clinic.
After the procedure, terrified and emotionally devastated she and I had to run the gauntlet through an unruly mob of pro-lifers calling us both child murderers.
She never quite recovered. She was a nurse who had spent 30 years caring for people and being characterised as a child murderer was more than she could take.

I'm so sorry you had to endure such evil from people.
Uhh, I HATE pro life protestors (outside of medical facilities.) They just take things way too far. There's a time and a place for that sort of thing and it's not outside of places of medicine. The people who have the audacity and the arrogance to judge people there should not only be barred from medical facilities (excluding medical reasons, obviously) but should be brought up on charges of harassment, imo.

 

[Marisa]

Thanks Marisa for this but I disagree that he answered. I understand what he wrote which is reprehensible to me...a woman who has an abortion is a murderer??.....but what he didn't answer was forcing women back to finding alternative methods. He hemmed and hawed but never did answer. And yes, he loves a book more than people.

His answer to the question is why I stopped engaging with him. He has no real regard for human life, his answer to this question makes that clear. The fact that he can say "meh, sucks for them" to the notion that women will be endangered if elective abortion is criminalized makes that clear. If his regard were for human life, he'd place as much value on the life of a woman as he does on a fetus, yet when addressing the issue of bodily autonomy he makes it clear he does not consider ownership of one's body as part and parcel of what is meant by the "right to life". If I do not own my body, then I do not possess any rights to live, and whether or not I continue to do so is a decision arbitrarily made by someone else, but not me. There can be only limited criminality in harming my person, and only such as it inconveniences the person(s) considered my owner. I am reduced to nothing more than someone's pet, and in all 50 states pets are considered property.

In the end, he simply loves his religion more than he he loves humanity, and that sort of person won't be reasoned out of believing they have the right to instruct others on how much rights they have, and when and under what circumstances they get to exercise the rights he gives them. Fortunately for us (you and me, Jo) those type of people really aren't the majority in this country (US). Consider that Mississippi, which is one of the most religiously conservative states in the union, could not muster enough support for a personhood bill, which would be the first step in dismantling Roe v. Wade.

I really hope that the balance on this issue stays weighted on the side of right to choose. The problem with issues of morality, which Emu doesn't understand (as his reply to Bunyip vis a vis "bad actions" makes clear) is that it cannot be legislated. Prohibition was our first foray into learning this lesson, and it was a dismal failure that is largely credited with giving rise to organized crime on a scale that hadn't been seen before in this country, and is still with us today. People still drank, only under Prohibition they were willing to kill and die for that drink.

Criminalizing abortion won't stop it. It will just create criminals. And that's just what we need in this country, is more criminals. People like Emu don't have a problem with that because they view women who would seek abortion, for any reason, as devoid of moral content and prison seems the right place for them. He thinks sex is only to be used for procreation, and if you're not on board with that you have no morals. He doesn't understand that in some cases, criminalizing abortion would leave born children motherless. Actually, he hasn't really considered the social ramifications of criminalizing abortion beyond "it makes me (Emu) feel morally superior". Note, he's not willing to enhance social safety nets despite the fact that he wants more children born. Why? Because only sluts get pregnant and don't keep the baby. It's not about valuing life for someone like Emu.

 

[JoStories]

His answer to the question is why I stopped engaging with him. He has no real regard for human life, his answer to this question makes that clear. The fact that he can say "meh, sucks for them" to the notion that women will be endangered if elective abortion is criminalized makes that clear. If his regard were for human life, he'd place as much value on the life of a woman as he does on a fetus, yet when addressing the issue of bodily autonomy he makes it clear he does not consider ownership of one's body as part and parcel of what is meant by the "right to life". If I do not own my body, then I do not possess any rights to live, and whether or not I continue to do so is a decision arbitrarily made by someone else, but not me. There can be only limited criminality in harming my person, and only such as it inconveniences the person(s) considered my owner. I am reduced to nothing more than someone's pet, and in all 50 states pets are considered property.

Agreed Marisa but I cannot for the life of me understand someone who views women as chattal or merely vehicles for fetuses. We would be, as you make clear, no more than household pets with no rights of our own. Its hard to fathom someone actually still believing this to be true. Can you imagine how over populated the prison system would be if every woman who had an abortion were place therein? What about real criminals; IE: rapists, murderers, etc? Would they be released to recommit simply because there was no room and they were considered as lesser criminals? The bottom line is that had I been forced to carry my grandfather's seed to term, I would have likely considered suicide at the time.

In the end, he simply loves his religion more than he he loves humanity, and that sort of person won't be reasoned out of believing they have the right to instruct others on how much rights they have, and when and under what circumstances they get to exercise the rights he gives them. Fortunately for us (you and me, Jo) those type of people really aren't the majority in this country (US). Consider that Mississippi, which is one of the most religiously conservative states in the union, could not muster enough support for a personhood bill, which would be the first step in dismantling Roe v. Wade.

I recall that vote and bill. I was more than thrilled that they shot the whole thing down, particularly in a state as Right wing Christian as that one. I lived for a while in Jackson while working in the ICU at UMiss. Keeping in mind that this was a meer decade ago, nurses were still expected to stand up when doctors came in. I accepted that stupidity when I was in the military but 10 years ago? Please!

Criminalizing abortion won't stop it. It will just create criminals. And that's just what we need in this country, is more criminals. People like Emu don't have a problem with that because they view women who would seek abortion, for any reason, as devoid of moral content and prison seems the right place for them. He thinks sex is only to be used for procreation, and if you're not on board with that you have no morals. He doesn't understand that in some cases, criminalizing abortion would leave born children motherless. Actually, he hasn't really considered the social ramifications of criminalizing abortion beyond "it makes me (Emu) feel morally superior". Note, he's not willing to enhance social safety nets despite the fact that he wants more children born. Why? Because only sluts get pregnant and don't keep the baby. It's not about valuing life for someone like Emu.

I hear you. I cannot even begin to imagine how many more children would be dumped at the ER as chattel. I've seen enough soulless children to last me a lifetime and this would just increase those numbers and what shall we do with them then? They are budding sociopaths, in the literal sense. I was certainly NOT a **** when my grandfather raped me. I was 14 years old and that whole thing began when I was about 6. Imagining someone thinking that a 6 year old or even a 14 year old is a **** is incomprehensible to me. I do believe I am done conversing with him and his ilk forever. Its not worth the effort.