Abortion

[columbus]

It proves that there is a difference between a fetus and a baby and to use the two terms interchangeably is dishonest.

now that it has been pointed out to you there is a difference, every time you say that abortion is murdering a baby, you are flat out lying.

No, it means people use some words differently, especially in different contexts.
But the semantics get so deep in this discussion I tend to stick with clearly defined terms like "human being".
It helps make it more obvious when people get emotional and start the poo flinging like calling people liars.
Tom

 

[Bunyip]

You asked me where I would draw the line with abortions, I have to admit that I can not give you a really solid answer - it is a complicated and nuanced notion.
Most administrations restrict abortion to early pregnancy, which I can certainly see the sense in.
Most also have strict medical, sanitary, professional guidelines relating to the procedure.
I think community support and counselling would be essential.

 

[McBell]

When did I say a fetus and a baby were the same? I said a fetus had technically counted as a child.

You answered your own question.
Do you really need me to repeat your answer to you?

(Which it does, and ironically, you STILL have YET to refute.)

So sorry.
I was unaware you required such hand holding.
A fetus is what it is called from about the eighth week from conception to birth.
A baby is what is it called after birth.

My apologies for thinking you smart enough to put that together from the definitions.

Second, I did not in any of my posts call abortion "murder". A difficult issue? Yes. Murder? No. Don't ever again put deceitful words in my mouth. You got it all twisted, Mestemia.

You really need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
Perhaps if you were not so wrapped up in your emotionally charged replies....

 

[McBell]

No, it means people use some words differently, especially in different contexts.
But the semantics get so deep in this discussion I tend to stick with clearly defined terms like "human being".
It helps make it more obvious when people get emotional and start the poo flinging like calling people liars.
Tom

Please point out where I called someone a liar.
Seems you also need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

Am I the only one not emotionally ranting in this thread?

 

[Sundance]

You answered your own question.
Do you really need me to repeat your answer to you?"

A very good question. I've got this to say in response. I will admit that I have made a mistake in my initial definition of a foetus, calling it a "baby" when I should have referred to it as a "child". So, I will do the humble thing and concede that to you. Other than this initial slip-up, I have (as you can see) indeed corrected my mistake, as I am quite familiar with the difference between a foetus and a baby.

So sorry.
I was unaware you required such hand holding.
A fetus is what it is called from about the eighth week from conception to birth.
A baby is what is it called after birth.

My apologies for thinking you smart enough to put that together from the definitions.

Once again, I do thank you for pointing it out that in my initial definition of "fetus", I had used the term "baby", instead of "child". A careless mistake on my part. Nonetheless, it does no damage whatsoever to the undeniable fact that a fetus is still an unborn child and - by default - a member of the human race. Can you dig it?

You really need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
Perhaps if you were not so wrapped up in your emotionally charged replies....

My apologies, dear friend, for I possess the unfortunate tendency to be rather hot-headed. Perhaps you're correct, again: a cool head is indeed far more reflective of the nobility of the individual. I suggest we consider a mutual act of peace, and put an end to this thread war. Are you with me?

 

[JoStories]

To begin, I must sincerely apologise to you and thank you for your politeness. Additionally, I will admit that you, Jo, are indeed correct in saying that the choice of whether or not to abort is the woman's to make, and I recognise the inherent difficulties in making a decision like that. I do accept that as a believer in the freedom of individual will. However, any choice any person makes in itself has no influence whatsoever upon my (or really, anyone's) particular view of the choice being made. In any case, you have your opinion on the matter, I have mine, and both of us are strongly opinionated on this issue, so let us just remain calm, cease this pointless arguing, and at least try to work out our differences in belief. Can you dig it?

I'm very calm. But that being said, I don't see any way to work out these differences. You want no abortions based on religious belief and I want women to have that choice. I don't see a lot of wiggle room here.

 

[JoStories]

When did I say a fetus and a baby were the same? I said a fetus had technically counted as a child. (Which it does, and ironically, you STILL have YET to refute.) Second, I did not in any of my posts call abortion "murder". A difficult issue? Yes. Murder? No. Don't ever again put deceitful words in my mouth. You got it all twisted, Mestemia.

He did prove his point using Stedman's. It clearly pointed out that a fetus is not an infant, child, etc. again, the difference is the ability to breath independently. I'm not sure anyone can make that more plain.

 

[columbus]

Please point out where I called someone a liar.
Seems you also need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

Am I the only one not emotionally ranting in this thread?

If your emotions weren't getting in the way of your reading comprehension you wouldn't be making this mistake.
I did not specify you. But I was referring specifically to the last sentence of your post which I quoted.

You are not the first person to get all emotional and take things personally. But the semantic games, logical fallacies, and bad science in this thread are aggravating. Largely because I expect more from people like you.
Tom

 

[Marisa]

I believe that in this specific case, abortion would be acceptable. That being because the fetus actually poses a severe threat to the woman's life. (And who says pro-life individuals don't concern themselves with the woman's health?)

That would be me, but only because you didn't fully comprehend my post. I did not say all anti choice people don't consider a woman's health. I said some. Not that you're doing it (though game show buzzer comments may suggest otherwise) but that's the problem with injecting too much emotion, it tends to cloud "the other guy's" perspective in our minds. Rather than paying close enough attention to be able to fully understand a certain perspective, we can often find ourselves creating straw men.

It is, however, rather evident that one who would say he/she cares not if a woman dies obtaining an abortion has, IMO, no intellectual right to call themselves "pro-life" when they also aren't interested in providing a social safety net to assist in the care of these countless numbers of children they'd see born. There is a distinct connection between poverty rates and abortion.

"• Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children).[3]"
Induced Abortion in the United States

Calling oneself "pro life" is much broader than a particular perspective on elective abortion. It speaks to one's position on wars, capital punishment, social safety nets, individual rights. In that respect, though I'm pro-choice, in many ways I'm far more pro-life than many in the anti-choice community.

 

[Marisa]

Faith sees things as they will be. So does hope. The question is, can a soul fit into a blastocyst? Once we tell each other the size of the human soul, we can know for sure.

I'm sorry, but you're way ahead of yourself. There is no proof of the existence of souls. Even if you could establish that souls exist, then you'd have the difficult task of proving that a soul is what renders the legal status of person. Not human, but person. I.E.: that difference which exists between myself, as I sit at my computer typing this reply to you, and the number of skin cells I just lost when I bumped my elbow into my desk.

 

[Sundance]

I'm very calm. But that being said, I don't see any way to work out these differences. You want no abortions based on religious belief and I want women to have that choice. I don't see a lot of wiggle room here.

Actually, I never said that. All I merely said that I'd never seek to have an abortion if I were a woman, because I try to follow the dictates of my conscience, which prohibit it. That is, unless my own life was severely threatened by an ectopic pregnancy. I not once made a reference to religion. (In fact, my own religion - Unitarian Universalism - is absolutely supportive of elective abortion.) However (and I cannot stress this enough), as a believer in the freedom of individual will, I do not believe in forcing my opinions upon others (insofar as it isn't done to me in return). Accordingly, my overarching theme on this (or any issue) is live and let live. In addition, I am willing to be flexible and open to discussion concerning this issue, as this is a very emotional topic, making room for serious reasons (e.g. ectopic pregnancy, rape).

 

[Marisa]

Actually, I never said that. All I merely said that I'd never seek to have an abortion if I were a woman, because I try to follow the dictates of my conscience, which prohibit it. That is, unless my own life was severely threatened by an ectopic pregnancy. I not once made a reference to religion. (In fact, my own religion - Unitarian Universalism - is absolutely supportive of elective abortion.) However (and I cannot stress this enough), as a believer in the freedom of individual will, I do not believe in forcing my opinions upon others (insofar as it isn't done to me in return). Accordingly, my overarching theme on this (or any issue) is live and let live. In addition, I am willing to be flexible and open to discussion concerning this issue, as this is a very emotional topic, making room for serious reasons (e.g. ectopic pregnancy, rape).

I respect everyone's opinions inasmuch as they don't attempt to force me to adopt those opinions or live my life as if I do. Truth be told, none us can ever truly know how we'll react to a situation we've not yet faced. At my age, it would be very easy for me to say that if I turned up pregnant tomorrow I'd abort, but I've never been pregnant at 48 so who knows? LOL I know it would exponentially more difficult that when I was 33 and that damn near killed me and my daughter, but then again there has been a decade's worth of medical advancement. If I can't say for certain what I would do, I'm sure as hell not qualified to tell anyone else what they should do!

 

[Sundance]

I respect everyone's opinions inasmuch as they don't attempt to force me to adopt those opinions or live my life as if I do. Truth be told, none us can ever truly know how we'll react to a situation we've not yet faced. At my age, it would be very easy for me to say that if I turned up pregnant tomorrow I'd abort, but I've never been pregnant at 48 so who knows? LOL I know it would exponentially more difficult that when I was 33 and that damn near killed me and my daughter, but then again there has been a decade's worth of medical advancement. If I can't say for certain what I would do, I'm sure as hell not qualified to tell anyone else what they should do!

I'm sorry. I didn't know. I can't really say that I understand, but what I can say is we (many of us on the pro-life side of the debate) just have to learn to be more flexible concerning this issue.

 

[Sundance]

For those individuals who care to read this post, this is my amended position on abortion:

"I do think that it's wrong, generally speaking, a woman shouldn't go through with it. However, I am willing to grant other individuals the freedom to believe and act differently, especially in the cases of rape, the woman's life being on the line, and financial unpreparedness. I can't really say that I understand what women (let alone pregnant women) go through, my being a male. Though, in any case, having an abortion or not is a decision which shouldn't be made hastily, because once it's done, a woman can't reverse it. All in all, I stand by the woman's ability to make her choice. I'm not going to condemn anybody for their decision even though I might disagree with it."

Concerning ectopic pregnancies specifically, I said,

"I believe that in this specific case, abortion would be acceptable. That being because the fetus actually poses a severe threat to the woman's life."

 

[Sundance]

Since you brought up war and the death penalty, I must say that I am utterly opposed to war and capital punishment.

Calling oneself "pro life" is much broader than a particular perspective on elective abortion. It speaks to one's position on wars, capital punishment, social safety nets, individual rights. In that respect, though I'm pro-choice, in many ways I'm far more pro-life than many in the anti-choice community.

 

[Marisa]

Since you brought up war and the death penalty, I must say that I am utterly opposed to war and capital punishment.

As am I. And I support a strong social safety net. I would prefer to see far more federal dollars spent on that and education than on the defense budget, and I say that as a military spouse which surely gives me more street cred than anyone else.

{that last bit is a joke, just in case i'm having an "off" sarcasm day}

 

[Marisa]

I'm sorry. I didn't know. I can't really say that I understand, but what I can say is we (many of us on the pro-life side of the debate) just have to learn to be more flexible concerning this issue.

I think we all do. As a pro-choice proponent, I'm terribly against some of the tactics that are used on "my" side . . . the "get your rosaries off my ovaries" sector, and I object to use of the word "parasite" because in my estimation, it seems like its use is a calculated effort to force an emotional response just like blowing up poster sized photos of an aborted fetus is. We're not going to reach any compromise point on this issue which simply will never be resolved by using science (if that were possible, there'd be no religion either), it will be because we find a way to respect someone despite them holding a position to which we are diametrically opposed. When someone from your side loses the ability to respect someone from my side, it doesn't make it any easier or particularly "profitable" for that person from my side to continue to respect you. There is much truth in the adage that if you want to be respected, you have to be respectable, and respectable people respect those they disagree with equally to those they share affinity with.

 

[JoStories]

Actually, I never said that. All I merely said that I'd never seek to have an abortion if I were a woman, because I try to follow the dictates of my conscience, which prohibit it. That is, unless my own life was severely threatened by an ectopic pregnancy. I not once made a reference to religion. (In fact, my own religion - Unitarian Universalism - is absolutely supportive of elective abortion.) However (and I cannot stress this enough), as a believer in the freedom of individual will, I do not believe in forcing my opinions upon others (insofar as it isn't done to me in return). Accordingly, my overarching theme on this (or any issue) is live and let live. In addition, I am willing to be flexible and open to discussion concerning this issue, as this is a very emotional topic, making room for serious reasons (e.g. ectopic pregnancy, rape).

I respect that. In fact, its a well reasoned and understandable position to take. I would never try to enforce my opinions or beliefs on anyone anymore than I would like them to force them on me. And like Marisa, I have had my own bad experiences. Like trying to find someone to do an abortion in the middle 60's, when it was more than difficult to find anyone and in fact, was still illegal in many places. Thankfully, my father would have never wanted me to carry his own father's child to term. SO I was very lucky. And yes, my pregnancy was by rape. and yes, its very emotional for me and many others.

 

[JoStories]

I'm sorry, but you're way ahead of yourself. There is no proof of the existence of souls. Even if you could establish that souls exist, then you'd have the difficult task of proving that a soul is what renders the legal status of person. Not human, but person. I.E.: that difference which exists between myself, as I sit at my computer typing this reply to you, and the number of skin cells I just lost when I bumped my elbow into my desk.

this brings to mind a fictional book I read some time back wherein the topic of the soul and where it was was one of the topics. They tried to find the 'weight' of the soul by weighing a person just as they died and their supposition was that even a nanogram of weight would point to the existence. Now, I realize this is a segue and WAY off topic but I later learned that allegedly there is study in this area. Wouldn't it be truly fascinating to find that upon death, there is a minute weight difference that could , let me say that again, could point to the existence of the soul.

 

[Marisa]

this brings to mind a fictional book I read some time back wherein the topic of the soul and where it was was one of the topics. They tried to find the 'weight' of the soul by weighing a person just as they died and their supposition was that even a nanogram of weight would point to the existence. Now, I realize this is a segue and WAY off topic but I later learned that allegedly there is study in this area. Wouldn't it be truly fascinating to find that upon death, there is a minute weight difference that could , let me say that again, could point to the existence of the soul.

I'd have a lot of questions . . . absence of air in the lungs, often the bowels continue to function involuntarily, etc. I'm skeptical.