Abortion

[SomeRandom]

Before working for a crisis center I worked for a birth defects foundation. Knowing pro life people and their giving habits, I would say this is a false idea.

Stereotypes exist for a reason. You or I may venture outside them. But there's still a kernel of truth to them regardless.

 

[viole]

Not a bad attempt, but I'm afraid yours was the statement that "laws are not based on right and wrong". Here are ten laws I think make sense:

Worship Jehovah
Don't pursue other gods
Don't blaspheme
Honor Shabbat to God
Honor your parents
Don't steal
Don't bear false witness
Don't commit adultery
Don't commit murder
Don't covet

Do these ten fall to arbitrary lines of right and wrong to you? If not, would you please define right and wrong somehow that makes sense? Because if you insist laws are not based on moral absolutes but are rather contrivances of society, you will still need to explain how society keeps making both right and wrong laws.

What's wrong in making fun of, instead of worshiping, Jehovah?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Logically, my barrister friend, if your statement is true, we would expect to find over time many laws that are wrong and many that are right. Please list the many laws that are wrong here on this thread. I'll start the list:

* gerrymandering laws

If I may, I would also like to start a list of things that are right. I'll start the list:

* gay marriages

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

LOL. The reason why I asked was because YOU brought it back into the conversation. "Right" and "wrong" are subjective terms, which is why I asked you to define "wrong" after YOU asked ME to provide "laws that were wrong".


So, again, since YOU asked me to provide laws that are "wrong", can you define that term for me?

Wrong: Unjust, untrue, incorrect, dishonest, immoral.

You made a statement that was outrageous on its face. You said laws have nothing to do with what's right or wrong... do MOST laws fit the definition above? How about 50% of them, since you believe in the arbitrary nature of societal norms and law? I question both your original statement and the relativist's canard that there aren't moral absolutes.

But since this is an abortion thread, we can go back to "is murder wrong?" I'm certain you are a decent person who thinks murder is wrong. So, perhaps be more tolerant of people who tote signs calling abortion murder. I would never do so--I think people who have abortions are sometimes being grossly selfish and other times, scared, hurting, poor, alone... but be more tolerant of people who abhor murder the way you do.

If you want to tell us all that murder and rape are subjectively wrong, I will lose respect for you.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Certainly any that I'm aware of. If you're aware of one that is different, then the burden of proof rests on you.



But it isn't a miracle if it isn't a supernatural event. An anomalous natural event is still a natural event.



You're free to talk to yourself all you want. It won't change anything.

Apparently, neither will talking to you. One wonders why I bother. Oh, that's right, God told me to.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Who said anything about killing babies when depressed? I said postpartum depression is an issue.
And again you are specifically referring to post birth killings. We don't jail someone for involuntary manslaughter if they have a miscarriage! Or at least we should never do so. If someone chooses not to have an abortion but endangers the fetus through drugs and alcohol we intervene. Because the choice made by the mother not to have a safe abortion is implicit in such a scenario.
There's many more nuances in this abortion debate than just an abortion, ya know?

There are many nuances, yes. I don't recall seeing on this thread a comparison between post-partum depression and post-abortion depression, for one important, overlooked example. We do know that people who give a child up for adoption often deal with the fallout of that--it's true.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What's wrong in making fun of, instead of worshiping, Jehovah?

Ciao

- viole

God has a sense of humor and of irony. Jesus said, paraphrasing, "You can say anything about me. You just cannot reject my Spirit when He calls."

 

[BilliardsBall]

If I may, I would also like to start a list of things that are right. I'll start the list:

* gay marriages

Ciao

- viole

Why you did you just put gay marriage? Is straight marriage not also right? Your biases are showing.

 

[viole]

God has a sense of humor and of irony. Jesus said, paraphrasing, "You can say anything about me. You just cannot reject my Spirit when He calls."

So, I am OK. I am not rejecting His spirit when it calls.

He is not calling.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Why you did you just put gay marriage? Is straight marriage not also right? Your biases are showing.

Saying that gay marriage is right,does not entail that not gay marriage is not right. For instance, eating apples is OK, but that does not entail that not eating them is not OK. You have to work a bit on your logic, I am afraid

So, I stand by my claim. Gay marriage is right.

Prove me wrong, using your objectve morality.

Ciao

- viole

 

[columbus]

But since this is an abortion thread, we can go back to "is murder wrong?" I'm certain you are a decent person who thinks murder is wrong.

I avoid using the word murder in the context of a discussion of abortion. It is just too subjective.

The tightest definition, extralegal homicide, doesn't apply. RvW is the law. Personal opinions about what should be legal don't enter into that debate. My personal opinions on that subject are very different from the majority of antiabortion activists.

I think using the term murder is a counter productive way of avoiding the real issues. But just calling abortion murder as though that clarifies anything or helps in any way is naive at best and hypocritically useless most of the time.
Tom

 

[leibowde84]

Wrong: Unjust, untrue, incorrect, dishonest, immoral.

You made a statement that was outrageous on its face. You said laws have nothing to do with what's right or wrong... do MOST laws fit the definition above? How about 50% of them, since you believe in the arbitrary nature of societal norms and law? I question both your original statement and the relativist's canard that there aren't moral absolutes.

But since this is an abortion thread, we can go back to "is murder wrong?" I'm certain you are a decent person who thinks murder is wrong. So, perhaps be more tolerant of people who tote signs calling abortion murder. I would never do so--I think people who have abortions are sometimes being grossly selfish and other times, scared, hurting, poor, alone... but be more tolerant of people who abhor murder the way you do.

If you want to tell us all that murder and rape are subjectively wrong, I will lose respect for you.

1. I said that "laws are not BASED on 'right' and 'wrong'", as they are subjective terms. This can be shown simply by looking at the term you used, "murder". "Murder" refers to "unjustified or illegal killing". There are, obviously, various subjective views as to what kind of killing are "justified". Just look at this thread. It cannot be said that abortion is "murder" subjectively, unless you are arrogant enough to disregard the points of view of others.
2. Laws are based on societal impact, which can be, at least somewhat, objectively measured. Drugs, for example, aren't morally wrong. Alcohol is a drug, and many people use it responsibly. Other drugs, like opiates, are used for various legal purposes. But, because of the detrimental impact that things like heroine have on society, we have chosen to make them illicit. It isn't based on "right" and "wrong".

Can you provide any support for your claim that "right" and "wrong" are objective terms beyond mere personal insults/threats? If so, I would be interested in seeing it.

 

[leibowde84]

I avoid using the word murder in the context of a discussion of abortion. It is just too subjective.

The tightest definition, extralegal homicide, doesn't apply. RvW is the law. Personal opinions about what should be legal don't enter into that debate. My personal opinions on that subject are very different from the majority of antiabortion activists.

I think using the term murder is a counter productive way of avoiding the real issues. But just calling abortion murder as though that clarifies anything or helps in any way is naive at best and hypocritically useless most of the time.
Tom

Well-put. Also, saying things like, "if you keep on claiming that right and wrong are subjective, I will lose respect for you", is just about as childish and unsubstantial as it gets.

 

[Cephus]

Apparently, neither will talking to you. One wonders why I bother. Oh, that's right, God told me to.

Your imaginary friend told you to engage random people on the Internet? Seek help.

 

[leibowde84]

Oh, that's right, God told me to.

You do realize how many crazy people have used these exact words to, completely honestly, explain brutal violence, right? Thus, I find it completely unreasonable to use this phrase without providing a thorough explanation of exactly what you mean.

 

[SomeRandom]

There are many nuances, yes. I don't recall seeing on this thread a comparison between post-partum depression and post-abortion depression, for one important, overlooked example. We do know that people who give a child up for adoption often deal with the fallout of that--it's true.

It can be argued that socially speaking the common cause of post abortion depression is down to people shaming people who get abortions in the first place or inner conflict about religious ideology. But sure, you can say that both abortion and giving birth has risks of depression developing. Among many others. No path is without hardship (though again, without all the shaming maybe we could make one path a little less stressful!! Just a thought!)

 

[McBell]

Why you did you just put gay marriage? Is straight marriage not also right? Your biases are showing.

Ouch.
One wonders if you realize how much more you revealed about yourself than your accusation reveals about the one you accuse?

 

[McBell]

I question both your original statement and the relativist's canard that there aren't moral absolutes.

No need to question it.
Merely present a moral absolute.

though to be fair and open minded about it, you will need to present a working definition of the term "moral absolute".

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It can be argued that socially speaking the common cause of post abortion depression is down to people shaming people who get abortions in the first place or inner conflict about religious ideology. But sure, you can say that both abortion and giving birth has risks of depression developing. Among many others. No path is without hardship (though again, without all the shaming maybe we could make one path a little less stressful!! Just a thought!)

Aside from depression, the risk of birth related death is actually going up in America, with fatalities occurring even quite some time after the birth but linked to it. Many women stress out their insides as the baby develops larger and rip muscles and damage organs. This isn't really talked about enough, pregnancy and birth can be truly fatal to women, everyone who is against abortion should at least spend five minutes just trying to imagine in their head all the health risks a women is running.

 

[SomeRandom]

Aside from depression, the risk of birth related death is actually going up in America, with fatalities occurring even quite some time after the birth but linked to it. Many women stress out their insides as the baby develops larger and rip muscles and damage organs. This isn't really talked about enough, pregnancy and birth can be truly fatal to women, everyone who is against abortion should at least spend five minutes just trying to imagine in their head all the health risks a women is running.

Wow, really? Kind of reminiscent of Alien. Scary.