Abortion

[viole]

I can understand that. My goal for some is to help them follow God's call. My goal for you, then, would be that when God's call comes, you are ready and able to respond.

Please don't assume that because you haven't encountered God so far in your life, that you will never encounter God--plus you can hasten the encounter by asking for one.

So, if I die today before that call comes, am I ok?

Ciao

- viole

 

[leibowde84]

If science has settled the question of how life began, why are scientists unable to reproduce life in a laboratory environment? Warning: the answer lies in irreducible complexity.

Science has made no claims and has not "settled" as to how life came from non-life. Where did you get that erroneous assumption from? What scientific theory do you even point to for this?

 

[viole]

It could be argued, but not successfully. The human conscience is a God-given wonder that is remarkably consistent. We know that a Hitler or Stalin had a conscience but suppressed it. They were evil, not crazy. When someone is nervous about an abortion, I believe they are both reasonably nervous about a medical procedure but also making a difficult choice, for which they are a moral agent.

What about not making the choice, but just playing it "safe"? What I have in mind is the day after pill. That might abort, but only if there is something to abort. I don't think it takes more conscience to use it than the conscience you need to use some other sorts of birth control.

Don't you think?

Ciao

- viole

 

[leibowde84]

What about not making the choice, but just playing it "safe"? What I have in mind is the day after pill. That might abort, but only if there is something to abort. I don't think it takes more conscience to use it than the conscience you need to use some other aorts of birth control.

Don't you think?

Ciao

- viole

Well-put, and excuse my ignorance, but doesn't it make you kinda sick?

 

[viole]

Well-put, and excuse my ignorance, but doesn't it make you kinda sick?

Dunno.,never tried it

Ciao

- viole

 

[columbus]

I didn't call abortion murder per se. However, it is relevant to our discussion at hand. There are some pro-lifers who call abortion murder.

That's pretty weaselly. It sure sounds like you agree with them. Are you saying that you don't?

If YOU think murder is always wrong but that abortion isn't murder, you can and should respect those who think it is murder--and who abhor murder.

I think a lot of things are immoral killing. From most executions to climate degradation to the invasion of Iraq. I avoid using the word murder because it is so utterly subjective that it rapidly causes a discussion to degenerate into a barrage of emotional appeals that don't help anything.
Tom

 

[BilliardsBall]

I find it's way too easy and even done for comfort to just label Hitler or Stalin "evil." Do I like them? God no!
Was the Holocaust an absolute utter atrocity? No doubt whatsoever.
Were the allies the dashing chivalrous heroes? Well, some probably were, sure. But not all of them. They were pretty racist, treated ex holocaust gay prisoners like **** and even locked up decent Japanese people in America as a "precaution." Hell wasn't antisemitism still prevalent in society after WWII?
Is history as clear cut as "good guys vs bad guys?" Nope, not really.
Like the number of Jews who actually fought on Hitler's side during WWII. Yes, they did exist. As many as 150,000 if memory serves. Some with Nazi and sometimes even Hitler's explicit consent!
Was Hitler a bad guy? Well, yeah. Kind of an understatement. If there's truly justice in the world, his torments in Hell would greatly outweigh most souls down there. But was he totally evil? Well..... He was an animal lover, had a family, a wife etc. It's easy to just brush Hitler aside as some evil entity. But he was a human being, with nuances, hypocrisy, arrogance but was not completely devoid of any shred of decency whatsoever. He was a proponent of (arguably inconsistent and hypocritical) eugenics, which stemmed from racism. And racism was pretty common in his time, to be honest.

I honestly don't know much if at all about Stalin, but same process applies. He was a human being who did terrible things. But he's not Satan or evil incarnate.

Our past is full of evil deeds. The destruction of many indigenous people and cultures for example. Was everyone who fought against Native Americans evil? Not necessarily. Ignorant to be sure. Committed bad deeds? Sure. But people are more complicated than just "good" and "evil."

But I digress.
See the inherent teaching of Sin especially in Abrahamic traditions is filled with instilling guilt and shame. If a number of society bombards women who have an abortion for whatever reason with this teaching, calls them "murderers" "sinners/sinful" "baby killers" and so forth, is there any wonder that some women feel nervous about getting an abortion or even feel bad after getting one? (True this is not definitive of the entire pro life movement, but there's a consistent element within the movement who resort to these arguably disgusting tactics.)
I think there's more to these correlated feelings than just "afraid of sinning/being bad."

Hitler and Stalin were not purely evil. Hitler loves his dogs and Eva. Stalin loved one or two close friends.

The problem is your statement seems to be making this correlation... Nazis not all bad... Allies not all good... abortion not all bad...

 

[BilliardsBall]

I have never once "defended abortion as [being] right", so I'm not sure where this is coming from. Personally, I think that abortion should be avoided if at all possible. But, I also believe that the choice should be left to the woman due to bodily autonomy.

To fraudulently claim that the issue is whether abortion is right or wrong is disrespectful at best.

Help me understand. Abortion is neither right nor wrong but you think it should be avoided because it is neither right nor wrong? I don't understand.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's pretty weaselly. It sure sounds like you agree with them. Are you saying that you don't?

I think a lot of things are immoral killing. From most executions to climate degradation to the invasion of Iraq. I avoid using the word murder because it is so utterly subjective that it rapidly causes a discussion to degenerate into a barrage of emotional appeals that don't help anything.
Tom

You are missing my point, specifically by implying that if I think abortion is murder I'm being deliberately inflammatory. My point was and is to show compassion for anti-abortion protestors who are genuinely moved by what they consider murder.

Further, we on the pro-life side must try to understand that those who are pro-choice do NOT consider abortion murder... otherwise there would be no abortion (legal).

 

[BilliardsBall]

So, if I die today before that call comes, am I ok?

Ciao

- viole

Don't worry, you won't die before the call comes. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up [on the cross] I will draw all persons unto me."

 

[BilliardsBall]

Science has made no claims and has not "settled" as to how life came from non-life. Where did you get that erroneous assumption from? What scientific theory do you even point to for this?

Sorry, you are saying that mainstream science has two theories regarding life:

* God created life

* Life occurred after random, mechanistic processes.

And here I thought mainstream science was committed to evolution. Please explain yourself.

 

[leibowde84]

Help me understand. Abortion is neither right nor wrong but you think it should be avoided because it is neither right nor wrong? I don't understand.

"Right" and "wrong" are subjective terms. Abortion, imho, is "wrong" in certain circumstances because it causes harm to society and disregards the value of life. That being said, my knowledge on the subject is limited, as I am not a woman and not able to understand what carrying a child to term is like, especially if the plan is giving that baby up for adoption. So, I find it hard to judge abortion in general as "wrong", as it shows arrogance in a large way.

Any practice that ends human life unnecessarily should be avoided at all costs. The term "wrong" is nothing but subjective, arrogant, presumptive, and vague. That is why I think the use of the term is inappropriate here.

 

[leibowde84]

Sorry, you are saying that mainstream science has two theories regarding life:

* God created life

* Life occurred after random, mechanistic processes.

And here I thought mainstream science was committed to evolution. Please explain yourself.

Where did you get this from?! I did not claim any of this, and there is no scientific consensus on this either. You brought this up, as I did not make any claims about it. There is no scientific theory that explains how life came from non-life. Evolution certainly doesn't speak to this at all.

 

[leibowde84]

Hitler and Stalin were not purely evil. Hitler loves his dogs and Eva. Stalin loved one or two close friends.

The problem is your statement seems to be making this correlation... Nazis not all bad... Allies not all good... abortion not all bad...

I think that is the only reasonable stance. Absolutes don't exist in this context.

 

[JoStories]

I can understand that. My goal for some is to help them follow God's call. My goal for you, then, would be that when God's call comes, you are ready and able to respond.

Please don't assume that because you haven't encountered God so far in your life, that you will never encounter God--plus you can hasten the encounter by asking for one.

What happens when that call from God is not the one you adhere to? This is what happened with me. And I believe in God as strongly as you, I suspect. Can you know that what I hold to be true of God is not true? No. Anymore than I can say your view is wrong. Do you really believe that God is so exclusive God would limit Itself to one religion only?

 

[columbus]

You are missing my point, specifically by implying that if I think abortion is murder I'm being deliberately inflammatory.

You are missing my point.
I don't know you very well. So I am not sure what you believe or say. You are switching between "they" and "I".
Nearly always, saying "Abortion is murder" is incorrect, hypocritical, and deliberately inflammatory. Maybe you don't say that.
It is incorrect because it is legal. It is hypocritical because lots of other forms of killing get ignored by the same people. And there is no reason to say it except to get people, of any opinion, riled up and divided on the issue without accomplishing anything else.

I also have personal reasons for hating it. It implies that one of best (late) friends was an accessory to murder, being staunchly pro choice and working for Planned Parenthood. The fact is that she was practically a saint. She worked her butt off fighting for Peace, Justice, and Welfare for all.

Tom

 

[leibowde84]

Don't worry, you won't die before the call comes. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up [on the cross] I will draw all persons unto me."

Maybe he didn't say that. We really don't have any way of knowing.

 

[Cephus]

Hitler and Stalin were not purely evil. Hitler loves his dogs and Eva. Stalin loved one or two close friends.

The problem is your statement seems to be making this correlation... Nazis not all bad... Allies not all good... abortion not all bad...

I'm waiting for someone to show that abortion is bad at all.

 

[Unification]

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

Consent to sex is consent to potential/chance for pregnancy.

 

[Unification]

Don't worry, you won't die before the call comes. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up [on the cross] I will draw all persons unto me."

"If."