Abortion

[Subduction Zone]

I am gonna be a bit harsh toward you but only because you have literally told the world you are a judgemental bigot.

I'm not saying this to be an enemy or entice you but because you made multiple fallacies and probably wouldn't realize it. I have seen smart people mess up here and I truly care for your opinions but you need to understand this first:

I'm NOT a Christian nor am I bias because by my own moral logic I should have received a harsher life.

This is a lesson in life to never judge people .
Anybody who knows me on this forum knows I'm not a Christian and that like most conservative minded people I'm not judgemental. I've seen you post before and I don't want you to put your foot in your mouth and ruin your credibility.

Again, I just wanna be fair to what you said and how other's would have taken it. And no I don't believe you're a bigot.

Most anti-abortion people are Christian. It was a reasonable assumption. But even without the Bible I doubt if you can support your beliefs. Personally I am very uncomfortable with abortion too. I would not recommend it for the person that I am with. But I am not going to tell others that they cannot get an abortion. It is a very difficult decision for a woman to make and I am not going to interfere, nor will I support laws against it.

 

[Sha'irullah]

It isn't only Christians that object to abortion. Virtually all world religions do, but that's another subject. The Dharmic religions do because it violates non-violence, especially if it's done as some kind of expression of individuality.

That is the casual destruction of a developing life.

To follow the Dharma is to commit yourself to non-violence as your way of life. Women and men. I can't make anyone else's decisions for them, but as a Buddhist I'm told not to hoard up or hide the Dharma. I'm obligated to tell anyone that asks me that casual abortion is immoral. I can't call myself devoted to ahimsa and tell someone else violence is alright.

Funny you mentioned that because I opposed abortion as an atheist and my objections to it occurred later through secular thought. I have never understood the concern of religion with abortion quite frankly.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Most anti-abortion people are Christian. It was a reasonable assumption.

There was a time when being an atheist required no political affiliation. Same applies today when babies get murdered.

But even without the Bible I doubt if you can support your beliefs.

You are saying that one needs the Bible to make arguments for morality? Well it scares me that you believe murder is legal.

Funny though because I do not find abortion tolerable the same way I do not find murder tolerable. Yes there are circumstances for both but that is about it.

A fetus is a baby regardless of how you use semantics. It is a human life that has already begun developing and is in no way shape or form similar to a speck of cells on your face as those cells will not form into human beings.

Fetuses are destined to become humans plain and simple. I would not kill a fetus otherwise known as a baby the same way I would not kill a mentally challenged child or person whom I dislike who may inconvenience me.

If a human life is so inconvenient that you must kill them, you are a horrible human being. Nothing else to say about it.

Personally I am very uncomfortable with abortion too. I would not recommend it for the person that I am with. But I am not going to tell others that they cannot get an abortion. It is a very difficult decision for a woman to make and I am not going to interfere, nor will I support laws against it.

I am not going to tell others they should not kill, I will just let mothers get murdered and fathers get slaughtered. Fair?

But to make it clear, I am in no means arguing that abortion is absolutely wrong. Yet there are circumstances where it is acceptable morally.

 

[dfnj]

Most anti-abortion people are Christian.

That's not true. Handing out free birth control at Planned Parenthood reduces the number of abortions. Everything the Christians do increase the number of abortions per year.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There was a time when being an atheist required no political affiliation. Same applies today when babies get murdered.

I have never even heard of babies being murdered. The subject was abortion. Weren't you ranting about being a judgmental bigot not too long ago. You might want to look into a mirror.

You are saying that one needs the Bible to make arguments for morality? Well it scares me that you believe murder is legal.

Nope, that is not what I said or even implied.

Funny though because I do not find abortion tolerable the same way I do not find murder tolerable. Yes there are circumstances for both but that is about it.

You seem rather confused. Please try to stay on topic. The discussion is abortion, not murder.

A fetus is a baby regardless of how you use semantics. It is a human life that has already begun developing and is in no way shape or form similar to a speck of cells on your face as those cells will not form into human beings.

No, a fetus is as fetus. If you want to claim that it is a baby the burden of proof is upon you.

Fetuses are destined to become humans plain and simple. I would not kill a fetus otherwise known as a baby the same way I would not kill a mentally challenged child or person whom I dislike who may inconvenience me.

No, they are not. Many get born. Some die naturally. A few are aborted. No "destiny" involved. Again, you put the burden of proof upon yourself.

If a human life is so inconvenient that you must kill them, you are a horrible human being. Nothing else to say about it.

No one is talking about killing human life. You are off topic again.

I am not going to tell others they should not kill, I will just let mothers get murdered and fathers get slaughtered. Fair?

Again, you are off topic.

But to make it clear, I am in no means arguing that abortion is absolutely wrong. Yet there are circumstances where it is acceptable morally.

And those morals are clearly not up to you to decide.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's not true. Handing out free birth control at Planned Parenthood reduces the number of abortions. Everything the Christians do increase the number of abortions per year.

That is incredibly true. If anti-abortion nuts truly believed their claims they would be pushing for free birth control for everyone.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I have never even heard of babies being murdered. The subject was abortion. Weren't you ranting about being a judgmental bigot not too long ago. You might want to look into a mirror.

Abortion is murder, You are taking a lifeform and ending it. What is that called?

If something breathes and you make it stop breathing what do you call it?

Nope, that is not what I said or even implied.

But even without the Bible I doubt if you can support your beliefs.

You just said that the argument requires religious basis and that it does not lie in a secular reality. You literally just said an argument for the preservation of human life requires religious needs.

Pro Life stances on abortion are argument on preserving human life.

TA DA!

You seem rather confused. Please try to stay on topic. The discussion is abortion, not murder.

Stay on topic bro, abortion is murder. We are talking about justified murder here bruh.

No, a fetus is as fetus. If you want to claim that it is a baby the burden of proof is upon you.

So fetuses do not grow into human beings? I just checked my biology book. You must have never went to school I guess. There are amazing programs online for basic biology. Wikipedia can help you also.

No, they are not. Many get born. Some die naturally. A few are aborted. No "destiny" involved. Again, you put the burden of proof upon yourself.

You seriously do not understand biology. Many things get interruptions like a car going from point A to point B, unless a collision occurs it is destined to get to point B.

You seriously just like murdering babies it seems.

No one is talking about killing human life. You are off topic again.

So a fetus is not human? it is some separate species? It contains no human biology or human DNA?

Again, you are off topic.



And those morals are clearly not up to you to decide.

So it is wrong of me to conclude that murder is wrong? So why cannot I not murder you? I meen golly you are just making all sorts of things seem morally right now

 

[Sha'irullah]

OK, a foetus can develop into a human being, but doesn't "develop into," imply that, like an ovum, it's not yet a human being?

It is not a child or adult if that is what you are saying. It is still human and contains all necessary traits to be identified as such.

2nd point: What does "human being" have to do with the issue? The salient issue is personhood, not species.

So imagine making that argument about a mentally challenged person who lacks the all too human trait of competence. In this case you know he will never achieve full adult competency and he is a burden upon society or perhaps his caretakers. You are saying that person due to their inherent lacking should die? I am dating a person with a learning disability who although is very competent is very innocent and immature. Should she die due to the insignificant burden she places on me for it?

Personhood comes into play the minute that said being has the potential to become a person the same way a baby lacks adulthood. Why is personhood even relevant to you if it does not matter?

Baking a potato is killing. Killing's not the issue. We all kill.

A potato has no moral receptiveness. It cannot accept moral action or give them. There is no death in the sense that a potato has lost nothing in its being and lacks sentience and will never become sentient. Unless Morty gets to it but that is a whole other story .

The issue is, what justifies us in killing an apple or fish, but precludes us from killing a human?

Neither are human or are capable of moral reciprocation. I am dealing with cats acting like lunatics now and you mean to tell me they perceive moral behavior offered by a human?

Abortion is not killing a baby. I'd argue that it's not killing a person. So, what makes abortion abhorrent?

The objective fact that a a fetus is a human. Humans all become persons unless they endure obstructions that do not permit it . . . like death.

Seriously you baby killers puzzle me.

 

[Sha'irullah]

That is incredibly true. If anti-abortion nuts truly believed their claims they would be pushing for free birth control for everyone.

But free birth control means taking money from working people. People have been reducing their pregnancies for years. It is called NOT HAVING SEX! I have had sex for years and never bothered with birth control pills.

People have more than enough orifices for intercourse and women have plenty. I am not going to be forced to pay for somebody's birth control the same way I am not gonna be forced to pay for their car.

In evolution which i know you already do not believe but hear me out. Those who maintain sexual fitness breed, and some of us do not and can wait as I did for years until I felt interested.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Most anti-abortion people are Christian. It was a reasonable assumption.

Also most Christians are not anti abortion. They are pro-life. You seriously need to understand what you are arguing for and who you are arguing against.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Abortion is murder, You are taking a lifeform and ending it. What is that called?

If something breathes and you make it stop breathing what do you call it?

Sorry, murder has a specific meaning. The burden of proof is upon you if you want to call abortion murder. You are not arguing rationally.

You just said that the argument requires religious basis and that it does not lie in a secular reality. You literally just said an argument for the preservation of human life requires religious needs.

Pro Life stances on abortion are argument on preserving human life.

TA DA!

You need to define your terms and why you use those terms. You are merely arguing emotionally not rationally. What is "human life"? Why is it special? Why is a brainless mass "human"?

Stay on topic bro, abortion is murder. We are talking about justified murder here bruh.

No, that is merely your opinion, and it is incorrect since there is a specific definition of murder. Emotional arguments are not very convincing.

So fetuses do not grow into human beings? I just checked my biology book. You must have never went to school I guess. There are amazing programs online for basic biology. Wikipedia can help you also.

Some may, some simply die. You did not understand your biology book. Please, I am not the one looking foolish here. You made an ignorant statement and were shown to be wrong. Don't get mad at me simply because you can't support your claims.

You seriously do not understand biology. Many things get interruptions like a car going from point A to point B, unless a collision occurs it is destined to get to point B.

Nope, now you are making an unwarranted assumption. Your "logic" is very convoluted.

You seriously just like murdering babies it seems.

Nope, babies do not occur until after birth. I guess I am not the one that failed biology here.

So a fetus is not human? it is some separate species? It contains no human biology or human DNA?

False dichotomy. Try again.

So it is wrong of me to conclude that murder is wrong? So why cannot I not murder you? I meen golly you are just making all sorts of things seem morally right now

When you learn some basic logic, when you learn how to properly define your terms and justify the definitions that you are using, then you can get back to me. Right now all you have are emotions and equivocation errors. Like it or not abortion, by definition, is not murder. You do not get to define the terminology that others use. Try to think rationally and you won't get so mad when you are so obviously wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But free birth control means taking money from working people. People have been reducing their pregnancies for years. It is called NOT HAVING SEX! I have had sex for years and never bothered with birth control pills.

People have more than enough orifices for intercourse and women have plenty. I am not going to be forced to pay for somebody's birth control the same way I am not gonna be forced to pay for their car.

In evolution which i know you already do not believe but hear me out. Those who maintain sexual fitness breed, and some of us do not and can wait as I did for years until I felt interested.

Yes, you got one thing right, free birth control does mean taking money from working people. And guess what? Like it or not people are going to have sex. So are you really "pro-life" or not? It is time to grow up. Just because you may have a low sex drive does not mean that everyone will. If you are truly against abortion you need to be pro birth control. You need to face reality.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Also most Christians are not anti abortion. They are pro-life. You seriously need to understand what you are arguing for and who you are arguing against.

I am sorry, but "pro-life" is a bogus term usually. If you are against abortion, if you want to minimalize it, then you need to be pro-birth control. Tell me what religion you follow? You are sounding a bit cultic here. I understand what I am arguing for. I am not the confused one among us.

You need to face facts. First off is that people, of all ages, are going to have sex no matter how much you cross your arms, tap your feet, and say "tsk tsk". Your supposed ability to resist having sex does not make you any better, or any worse, than others. If you oppose a behavior in others you need to supply a reasonable remedy. I used to be anti-gay wedding. I was brought up in a rather homophobic culture. When I realized that it was immoral and illogical to oppose both homosexual promiscuity and wedding equality I changed my mind. Of course what two people do in the privacy of their own home is their business and not mine, but it took me realizing that one had to be a hypocrite to oppose both that made me change my mind. You want to oppose both abortions and the means to lower the number of abortions. That is hypocritical on your part. You might want to rethink your position.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I already said in my first statement in this thread @9-10ths_Penguin that I support a woman's right to obtain an abortion.

I’m glad to hear that you’re pro-choice. I hope you understand how your posts in the thread would have given a different impression.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Also most Christians are not anti abortion. They are pro-life. You seriously need to understand what you are arguing for and who you are arguing against.

I think the term “anti-choice” is the most accurate term for the campaign against legal abortion.

While there are individual exceptions, the movement as a whole doesn’t seem to flow from any overall movement to protect life (for instance, I’ve never seen “pro-life” signs at an anti-war rally).

It also doesn’t seem to be particularly interested in measures that would reduce the number of abortions if they would also benefit women. Your rant about birth control a few posts after this one is a good example of what I’m talking about.

In fact, the movement is often associated with measures that would tend to increase abortion, like abstinence-only sex ed. If we grant your premise that fetuses are “life,” then nobody who opposes teaching teens as many ways to avoid pregnancy as possible can’t rightly be called “pro-life.”

Overall, the only measures that the anti-choice movement supports are the ones that hurt women. The movement seems to be more about punishing women for sex that they disapprove of than it is about actually preventing abortion.

... however, “anti-woman” is a bit too broad a term, so “anti-choice” will have to do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A potato has no moral receptiveness. It cannot accept moral action or give them. There is no death in the sense that a potato has lost nothing in its being and lacks sentience and will never become sentient.

A fetus has all of these, except a potato will never become sentient and it's not guaranteed a fetus will.

So a fetus is not human?

Who's to say? It could be it's a corpse, as that is the ultimate destiny of both the born and unborn alike. Why should we give moral considerations to anyone, when we are nothing more than fattened calves for the Reaper's slaughter to provide a buffet for worms, carrion birds, and a host of bacteria?

But free birth control means taking money from working people.

It's called social responsibility, and spending a few cents now to avoid spending many dollars later.

People have been reducing their pregnancies for years. It is called NOT HAVING SEX!

Abstinence-only really just doesn't work as a contraception plan. America has tried, and has a teen pregnancy rate way higher than countries that teach comprehensive sex-ed courses and provide easy access to birth control.

Seriously you baby killers puzzle me.

If you didn't insist on using the phrase "baby killers" it probably wouldn't puzzle you as much.

 

[Polymath257]

Abortion is murder, You are taking a lifeform and ending it. What is that called?

Depends. if it is a cancer, I call it treatment. if it is a fetus, I call it abortion.

If something breathes and you make it stop breathing what do you call it?

Fetuses don't breath. In fact, one of the big issues for premature births is lung development.

You just said that the argument requires religious basis and that it does not lie in a secular reality. You literally just said an argument for the preservation of human life requires religious needs.

Pro Life stances on abortion are argument on preserving human life.

TA DA

That the position isn't coherent is the issue. For example, and I am being quite series, sperm and egg cells are *fully human*. They are the haploid stage of our life cycle. But I bet you have no issue with killing them (or letting them die). Any one of your organs is *humans* (it certainly isn't a cat liver), but if it is causing your disease, I suspect you will have it removed and it will die.

So, there is more than simply being human involved. And I claim that the *relevant* aspects are not there until the fetal brain develops enough to feel pain, which is quite late in pregnancy. Certainly a fertilized egg or an embryo is *far* from being a 'breathing human' nor, for that matter a 'thinking human'. I don't feel any particular moral issue at those stages, especially when the woman in which this thing lives does want it there.

And that gets to another BIG point. If I or you or anyone else decided to take over someone else's body, they would have a full right to self-defense, including killing us if that was required to get their body back. Think about that one for an instant.

Stay on topic bro, abortion is murder. We are talking about justified murder here bruh.

So fetuses do not grow into human beings? I just checked my biology book. You must have never went to school I guess. There are amazing programs online for basic biology. Wikipedia can help you also.

Sure they do, *if* nurtured by the pregnant woman's body, and *if* there are appropriate nutrients, and *if* the woman doens't die, and *if* a while collection of other things either go right or fail to go wrong. The point isn't what they can become, the point is what they are NOW. And right NOW they are not a human being.

You seriously do not understand biology. Many things get interruptions like a car going from point A to point B, unless a collision occurs it is destined to get to point B.

You seriously just like murdering babies it seems.



So a fetus is not human? it is some separate species? It contains no human biology or human DNA?

Every cell of your body has the same DNA as you. That doens't make each cell a human being. It is even human DNA. No question about that. But that is NOT what is involved in the abortion debate.

So it is wrong of me to conclude that murder is wrong? So why cannot I not murder you? I meen golly you are just making all sorts of things seem morally right now

Murder is wrong. Abortion is not murder.

 

[columbus]

Sorry, murder has a specific meaning. The burden of proof is upon you if you want to call abortion murder. You are not arguing rationally.

This is not true.
People still refer to the deaths of Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin as "murder", despite the shooters having been cleared legally.
Here in the real world, murder is any death that someone considers unacceptable morally. "Murder" doesn't have a specific meaning, it's quite subjective and arbitrary in the common usage.
Even in the more objective usage, an extralegal killing of a human being, laws vary hugely. What is legal in Mississippi isn't legal in Massachusetts, much less Pakistan or Chile.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Also most Christians are not anti abortion. They are pro-life. You seriously need to understand what you are arguing for and who you are arguing against.

This is not true.
Most of the Christians who consider themselves Pro-Life support pro-death policies as a general rule. From supporting capital punishment to preemptive war to environmental disaster, Christians as a rule are not Pro-Life. They are anti-abortion.

And even on that one subject, they generally oppose policies that reduce abortion. They oppose age appropriate sex Ed. They oppose cranking up funding for anti-abortion organizations like Planned Parenthood.

There are Pro-Life Christians, but not very many in my experience. Most Christians don't even oppose abortion. They talk about it, but they don't do it.
Tom

 

[Sha'irullah]

This is not true.
Most of the Christians who consider themselves Pro-Life support pro-death policies as a general rule. From supporting capital punishment to preemptive war to environmental disaster, Christians as a rule are not Pro-Life. They are anti-abortion.

Pro-Life does not mean anti death penalty. It is only a stance on abortion and I do not know where you are getting this from as I have long researched this years ago.

I am fully aware of pro-lifers supporting the death penalty but as a general acknowledgment it usually falls under the eye for an eye notion. I am one of such people who supports the death penalty under such notion.

The difference between pro-life and anti-abortion groups are the basis of ethical standards in shape of legality. Pro-lifers do not wish to abolish abortion in all forms in most cases and simply make a moral ground for conceivement of children while anti abortionist oppose abortion on both legal and moral grounds wishing for its abolishment altogether regardless of moral postulates.

And even on that one subject, they generally oppose policies that reduce abortion. They oppose age appropriate sex Ed. They oppose cranking up funding for anti-abortion organizations like Planned Parenthood.

I am not aware of any difference in regard of Sex Ed and its reduction of abortions. Sexuality is best left to parents although I see concerns even in that . . . my own stepmother kept her mouth shut I should add but she is very deranged.

Planned Parenthood is not anti-abortion, it performs abortions and even if not many it still does. Planned Parenthood is a cursed within my own community as it increases child births and provides aid to families who cannot have children. In African American communities this becomes a massive crutch and debilitating infliction on children's well being. I could rattle all day about first hand account yet alone statistics.

There are Pro-Life Christians, but not very many in my experience. Most Christians don't even oppose abortion. They talk about it, but they don't do it.
Tom

So you just admitted they are pro lifers then lol . Again look up anti-abortion and pro-life because you are flipping them both.