Abortion

[Darkness]

Where in the Bible does it forbid abortion?

 

[Mister Emu]

Thou shalt not murder.

 

[UnTheist]

Thou shalt not murder.

What does that have to do with abortions?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Where in the Bible does it forbid abortion?

Nowhere. The Christian tradition against abortion is early, though, as it is found in the apostolic fathers.

Early Christians Against Abortion

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The Didache is as close to the Bible as we can get for a Christian teaching against abortion.

It appears that the translations are quite literal.

http://www.catholicplanet.com/ebooks/didache.htm - translation by Schaff

Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt boys; thou shalt not commit fornication. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; thou shalt not practice sorcery. Thou shalt not procure abortion, nor shalt thou kill the new-born child. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.viii.i.iii.html - translation by Richardson
2"Do not murder; do not commit adultery"; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; "do not steal"; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a new-born infant. "Do not covet your neighbor's property;

I have highlighted some Greek words below... the first word is the unborn "teknon" - "child" and it is apposed to the other word highlighted in blue "gennothen" = "the one who has been born" both words are surrounded by destruction. Do not destroy the unborn child by destruction or the one who has been born.

ou) foneu&seij, ou) moixeu&seij, ou) paidofqorh&seij, ou) porneu&seij, ou) kle/yeij, ou) mageu&seij, ou) farmakeu&seij, ou) foneu&seij te/knon e0n fqora|~ ou)de\ gennhqe\n a)poktenei=j, ou)k e0piqumh&seij ta_ tou~ plhsi/on.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What does that have to do with abortions?

Jeremiah 1:5 is traditionally used as the foundation for the idea that a fetus is a person. The verse makes it all clear:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

By this passage, we can obviously conclude:

- that Jeremiah was known by God before he was born
- that Jeremiah was a person before he was born (and not just "known" as a concept is known)
- that Jeremiah was a person right from the moment of conception
- that Jeremiah did not exist as a soul separate to his body forming in the womb at an point (even though he apparently existed before his body was formed... but as soon as phyisical development began, his soul popped right into that little embryo - for them to exist separately would have been impossible for some reason)
- that this is not only true for Jeremiah, but for every single other person as well

... see? It's all perfectly logical.

 

[rojse]

Where in the Bible does it forbid abortion?

It's trying to use a two-thousand year old book to make moral rulings about a situation that has only occured in this last century.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It's trying to use a two-thousand year old book to make moral rulings about a situation that has only occured in this last century.

That is patently false.

 

[rojse]

That is patently false.

How so?

What abortion methods were available at the time of the publication of the Bible?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How so?

What abortion methods were available at the time of the publication of the Bible?

Surgery didn't suddenly begin in 1900 or something. After all, we get the term "Caesarian section" because that's the way Julius Caesar was supposedly born.

There have been non-surgical methods for donkey's ages too: things like dropping onesself into frigid water, while not necessarily the most effective method, has always been available. And it's been possible to throw onesself down a hill ever since the advent of hills.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

How so?

What abortion methods were available at the time of the publication of the Bible?

Three that I know of --- aside from punching the stomach of a women ---

1) Herbs
2) Jumping up and down during a key point in the pregnancy
3) The most popular method was exposure (as seen at the beginning of the movie 300

I listed all of these methods plus scholarly journals that give references for ancient abortion practices in a link: Early Christians Against Abortion

 

[logician]

Let the woman control her own body, not the church down the street.

 

[rojse]

Three that I know of --- aside from punching the stomach of a women ---

1) Herbs
2) Jumping up and down during a key point in the pregnancy
3) The most popular method was exposure (as seen at the beginning of the movie 300

I listed all of these methods plus scholarly journals that give references for ancient abortion practices in a link: Early Christians Against Abortion

Thank you.

To ask the question, why did God design herbs that women could eat to abort a baby when he was against such a thing?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thou shalt not murder.

As you know, 'murder' is a legal distinction. Abortion does not violate halakha.

 

[Deut 13:1]

As you know, 'murder' is a legal distinction.

Agreed.

Abortion does not violate halakha.

Depends on the situation. In most cases it does violate halakha...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Depends on the situation. In most cases it does violate halakha...

There are outlooks that advocate that abbortion should always be prohibited, even if it is to save the life of the mother. Conversely, there are standpoints that express precisely the opposite: that a woman's decision to have an abortion ought to be accepted, no matter what her reason for desiring the procedure. As the rabbis have demonstrated, however, the Jewish consensus views on abortion do not accord with either of these approaches. Rather, normative halakhic positions have always held that some amount of abortion is required - in order to save the life of the mother - but have uniformly rejected abortions that cannot be justified either because of maternal need, or for a threat to the fetus, or perhaps to save another child.

[See Abortion in Judaism by Daniel Schiff]

Abortion per se does not violate halakha. (By the way, the Rashi/Ramban difference - i.e., non-nefesh versus rodef - is an interesting one.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To ask the question, why did God design herbs that women could eat to abort a baby when he was against such a thing?

I assume the answer is similar to why God would design poisonous plants when he is against murder and suicide. Depending on religious tradition, it may also be the reason why He would design non-kosher/non-halal livestock but still want people to adhere to dietary restrictions, or peyote but still want people to avoid intoxicating substances.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Abortion per se does not violate halakha. (By the way, the Rashi/Ramban difference - i.e., non-nefesh versus rodef - is an interesting one.)

Without having read Sciff's book, I believe it would be hard to argue that abortion in most cases is okay. While there are instances that abortion is required, they are not the norm. All rabbinic authorities will agree that any case where the mother's life is directly at risk because of the unborn child, it's okay to terminate unless the head of the child has already been delivered. There are interpretations that if the child will be mamzer (ie: incest or married woman), then it's okay to be terminated. There are interpretations that involve taking into account the psychiatric factors as well.

I think even you will agree with this statement: in any case that abortion is to be considered a compitent authority must be seeked and every case is determined on the individual basis. There is no yes/no answer to abortion, and anyone who claims there is - is wrong. Now I haven't read Sciff's book and honestly I probably won't because of time restraints, but if he argues that it should be always accepted, I don't think it's worth the read.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thank you.

To ask the question, why did God design herbs that women could eat to abort a baby when he was against such a thing?

hahaha - good question. Perhaps the herbs were designed for other purposes.:yes:

 

[sojourner]

If God didn't intend for us to annihilate ourselves, why did God give us the ability to create nuclear weapons?

This is absurd.