Abortion

[angellous_evangellous]

If God didn't intend for us to annihilate ourselves, why did God give us the ability to create nuclear weapons?

This is absurd.

God also didn't create us with high-speed internet.

 

[sojourner]

God also didn't create us with high-speed internet.

I thought God created us with dust...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I thought God created us with dust...

Move a bit around and there's a connection.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Without having read Sciff's book, I believe it would be hard to argue that abortion in most cases is okay.

And neither Schiff nor I do so. But the fact remains that, from the standpoint of Judaism, abortion does not equal murder. The OP asks: "Where in the Bible does it forbid abortion?" I'd be interested in reading your answer.

 

[yossarian22]

If God didn't intend for us to annihilate ourselves, why did God give us the ability to create nuclear weapons?

Because of nuclear power.
The technology to make a nuclear bomb can be used for non destructive purposes.

What other purpose do herbs which causes abortion have?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Because of nuclear power.
The technology to make a nuclear bomb can be used for non destructive purposes.

What other purpose do herbs which causes abortion have?

Not sure. I don't know if we can find out for sure which herbs were used.

I suppose they can be used for rat poison or something.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I suppose they can be used for rat poison or something.

Whatever compounds cause abortions/miscarriages are probably used by the plant itself for something: warding off animals that would eat it, attracting animals that would spread its seeds, some other sort of biological process, or whatever. "Purpose" doesn't have to be a human purpose, after all.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Whatever compounds cause abortions/miscarriages are probably used by the plant itself for something: warding off animals that would eat it, attracting animals that would spread its seeds, some other sort of biological process, or whatever. "Purpose" doesn't have to be a human purpose, after all.

:yes:

 

[Deut 13:1]

And neither Schiff nor I do so. But the fact remains that, from the standpoint of Judaism, abortion does not equal murder. The OP asks: "Where in the Bible does it forbid abortion?" I'd be interested in reading your answer.

I agree abortion does equal murder. However, just because it's not in the same category does not mean that it isn't always forbidden. As I said before, I think that the issue is something that is determined on a case-by-case analysis. And sadly, I'm no where near competant enough or educated enough to be the one to draw the line on each case. I do feel as though I can give general outlines on the issue but that's about as far as I'm willing to discuss the issue. I'm just not educated enough to make a ruling.

Nevertheless, one must look at what a pregnancy is. ie: the sperm hits the egg and something happens. I'm not a biology person, so I'll let you use your imagination. At 40 days, the heart begins to beat. From the moment of conception till that 40th day where the heart begins to pump, something is going on. It doesn't happen overnight, obviously there is some form of life, it may not be equivalent to a human life, but it still has the potential to become human life. And for the idiots here, please don't post about masturbation and sperm shooting off also having the potential for life. There is a difference from sperm

I guess bottom line is this, i agree abortion does not equal murder, but in a lesser category. Just as the American courts have various categories for killing, so does Jewish law. Each category is still forbidden/against the law except with certain circumstances. The only time that I can think of that abortion is on the borderline of necessary is if the child is mamzer.

On a side note, Jay, was there a thread that was associated with the PM you sent me?

 

[logician]

Let the woman control her own body, not the church down the street.

 

[McBell]

Let the woman control her own body, not the church down the street.

OMG!!!

Are you insane?
Let women control their own bodies?!?!
If we let women control their own bodies the next thing you know, they will want to control their own beliefs..
and then their own THOUGHTS!!!
Where would it end!?!?!?!?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Ha! This reminds me of the saying:

"If men could get pregnant, then abortion would be a sacrament"

heh heh ... see my thread Abortion is a sacrament?

 

[McBell]

Ha! This reminds me of the saying:

"If men could get pregnant, then abortion would be a sacrament"

heh heh ... see my thread Abortion is a sacrament?

I got this little note when I tried your link:

Not Found

The requested URL /comparative-religion/52310-abortion-sacrament.html was not found on this server.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Try this then http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/52310-abortion-sacrament.html

 

[McBell]

Try this then http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/52310-abortion-sacrament.html

Much better

 

[logician]

OMG!!!

Are you insane?
Let women control their own bodies?!?!
If we let women control their own bodies the next thing you know, they will want to control their own beliefs..
and then their own THOUGHTS!!!
Where would it end!?!?!?!?

Let's not go overboard. LOL

 

[s2a]

OMG!!!

Are you insane?
Let women control their own bodies?!?!
If we let women control their own bodies the next thing you know, they will want to control their own beliefs..
and then their own THOUGHTS!!!
Where would it end!?!?!?!?

Heh.

It could end in the voting booth...;-)

 

[SFT26]

Where in the Bible does it forbid abortion?

1. The Bible teaches that human life is different from other types of life, because human beings are made in the very image of God.
The accounts of the creation of man and woman in Genesis (Genesis 1:26-31; 2:4-25) tell us this: "God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27).
The word "create" is used three times here, emphasizing a special crowning moment in the whole process of God’s making the world and everything in it. The man and woman are given "dominion" over everything else in the visible world.
Not even the original sin takes away the image of God in human beings. St. James refers to this image and says that because of it we should not even speak ill of one another. "With [the tongue] we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings who are made in the image of God . . . This ought not be so, brothers" (James 3:9-10).
The image of God! This is what it means to be human! We are not just a bunch of cells randomly thrown together by some impersonal forces. Rather, we really reflect an eternal God who knew us from before we were made, and purposely called us into being.
At the heart of the abortion tragedy is the question raised in the Psalms: "Lord, what is man that you care for him, mortal man that you keep him in mind? . . . With glory and honor you crowned him, giving him power over the works of your hands" (Psalm 8:5-7).
There is the key. Not only did God make us, but He values us. The Bible tells us of a God who is madly in love with us, so much so that He became one of us and even died for us while we were still offending Him (see Romans 5:6-8). In the face of all this, can we say that human beings are disposable, like a car that becomes more trouble than it is worth? "God doesn’t make junk." If you believe the Bible, you have to believe that human life is sacred, more sacred than we have ever imagined!
2. The Bible teaches that children are a blessing.
God commanded our first parents to "Be fertile and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). Why? God Himself is fertile. Love always overflows into life. When the first mother brought forth the first child, she exclaimed, "I have brought forth a man with the help of the Lord" (Genesis 4:1). The help of the Lord is essential, for He has dominion over human life and is its origin. Parents cooperate with God in bringing forth life. Because this whole process is under God’s dominion, it is sinful to interrupt it. The prophet Amos condemns the Ammonites "because they ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead" (Amos 1:13).
"Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3).
3. The Bible teaches that the child in the womb is truly a human child, who even has a relationship with the Lord.
The phrase "conceived and bore" is used repeatedly (see Genesis 4:1,17) and the individual has the same identity before as after birth. "In sin my mother conceived me," the repentant psalmist says in Psalm 51:7. The same word is used for the child before and after birth (Brephos, that is, "infant," is used in Luke 1:41 and Luke 18:15.)
God knows the preborn child. "You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15). God also helps and calls the preborn child. "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11). "God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).
4. Scripture repeatedly condemns the killing of the innocent.
This flows from everything that has been seen so far. God’s own finger writes in stone the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17) and Christ reaffirms it (Matthew 19:18 - notice that He mentions this commandment first). The Book of Revelation affirms that (unrepentant) murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (Revelation 22:15).
The killing of children is especially condemned by God through the prophets. In the land God gave his people to occupy, foreign nations had the custom of sacrificing some of their children in fire. God told His people that they were not to share in this sin. They did, however, as Psalm 106 relates: "They mingled with the nations and learned their works…They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and they shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, desecrating the land with bloodshed" (Psalm 106:35, 37-38).
This sin of child-sacrifice, in fact, is mentioned as one of the major reasons that the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians and the people taken into exile. "They mutilated their sons and daughters by fire…till the Lord, in his great anger against Israel, put them away out of his sight" (2 Kings 17:17-18).
Notice that this practice was a religious ritual. Not even for "religious freedom" can the killing of children be tolerated.
5. The Bible teaches that God is a God of justice.
An act of justice is an act of intervention for the helpless, an act of defense for those who are too weak to defend themselves. In foretelling the Messiah, Psalm 72 says, "Justice shall flower in his days…for he shall rescue the poor man when he cries out and the afflicted when he has no one to help him" (Psalms 72:7,12). Jesus Christ is our justice (1 Corinthians 1:30) because He rescued us from sin and death when we had none to help us (see Romans 5:6, Ephesians 2:4-5).
If God does justice for His people, He expects His people to do justice for one another. "Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful" (Luke 6:36). "Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:37). "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" (Matthew 7:12). "Love one another" (John 15:17).
Abortion is the opposite of these teachings. It is a reversal of justice. It is a destruction of the helpless rather than a rescue of them. If God’s people do not intervene to save those whose lives are attacked, then the people are not pleasing or worshiping Him.
God says through Isaiah, "Trample my courts no more! Bring no more worthless offerings…Your festivals I detest…When you spread out your hands, I close my eyes to you; though you pray the more, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood! Wash yourselves clean…learn to do good. Make justice your aim: redress the wronged, hear the orphan’s plea, defend the widow" (Isaiah 1:13-17).
Indeed, those who worship God but support abortion are falling into the same contradiction as God’s people of old, and need to hear the same message.
6. Jesus Christ paid special attention to the poor, the despised, and those whom the rest of society considered insignificant.
He broke down the false barriers that people set up among themselves, and instead acknowledged the equal human dignity of every individual, despite what common opinion might say. Hence we see Him reach out to children despite the efforts of the apostles to keep them away (Matthew 19:13-15); to tax collectors and sinners despite the objections of the Scribes (Mark 2:16); to the blind despite the warnings of the crowd (Matthew 20:29-34); to a foreign woman despite the utter surprise of the disciples and of the woman herself (John 4:9, 27); to Gentiles despite the anger of the Jews (Matthew 21:41-46); and to the lepers, despite their isolation from the rest of society (Luke 17:11-19).
When it comes to human dignity, Christ erases distinctions. St. Paul declares, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).
We can likewise say, "There is neither born nor unborn." Using this distinction as a basis for the value of life or the protection one deserves is meaningless and offensive to all that Scripture teaches. The unborn are the segment of our society which is most neglected and discriminated against. Christ Himself surely has a special love for them.
7. Scripture teaches us to love.
St. John says, "This is the message you have heard from the beginning: we should love one another, unlike Cain who belonged to the evil one and slaughtered his brother" (1 John 3:11-12). Love is directly contrasted with slaughter. To take the life of another is to break the command of love. To fail to help those in need and danger is also to fail to love.
Christ teaches this clearly in the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37), in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), and in many other places.
No group of people is in more serious danger than the boys and girls in the womb. "If someone…sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in Him?" (1 John 3:17).

 

[logician]

"The Bible teaches that human life is different from other types of life, because human beings are made in the very image of God."

Actually, the opposite is true, all life is important, we, afterall, evolved from "lower" forms of life.
The killing off of many, many species due to our selfish actions is simply unconscionable, and may in the end spell our own demise.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Oh, abortion is so sad. Us peanuts are so sad. Some 3,000 people were killed on 9/11, and some 4,500 babies were, too. And every day since. Its so sad. All the people who voted for pro-choice were already born! I'm just a peanut, but I am amazed at humans for this. Hitler used evolution to say blonde-haired blue-eyed people were the best, brown hair/eyed next, olive skin next, and then orientals (not all), then black people and finally Jews were closest to apes. So he tried to kill them to make room for the more "evolved" people. Now they do the same thing with abortion. But Mr. Peanut read this:

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Did you know there are as many people who want to adopt babies as there are abortions? And what about rape or incest? Mr. Peanut says kill the rapist/molester, not the baby! Abortion is very, very bad, yup, it sure is. That's what us peanuts think.

Cheers!

P.S. Say, if there is to be choice in the matter, they should have a jar of balls with the names of the baby, mom, dad, doctor, congressman, etc. on it in the abortion clinic, and whoever gets chosen, gets it! Sounds good to us peanuts.