About a deity full of love and compassion

[atanu]

*headdesk*

Yes. This is not the first time though.

 

[atanu]

CONSCIOUSNESS AND ITS PLACE IN NATURE
DAVID J. CHALMERS

CONSCIOUSNESS AND ITS PLACE IN NATURE - DAVID J. CHALMERS - ATHENAEUM LIBRARY OF PHILOSOPHY

-----There is no question that experience is closely associated with physical processes in systems such as brains. It seems that physical processes give rise to experience, at least in the sense that producing a physical system (such as a brain) with the right physical properties inevitably yields corresponding states of experience. But how and why do physical processes give rise to experience? Why do not these processes take place "in the dark," without any accompanying states of experience? This is the central mystery of consciousness.

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Who is the seer/experiencer/knower?
Do the brain chemicals see and know?

 

[PolyHedral]

Do the brain chemicals see and know?

"Yes." The chemicals are structured in a way that models the behaviors and actions of humans, and then uses these predictions to further the structure's survival. Experience and consciousness arise because the chemicals end up modelling and predicting themselves, and so end up reacting to their own thought processes. Hence, you can know things, but also know that you know things.

 

[atanu]

"Yes." The chemicals are structured in a way that models the behaviors and actions of humans, and then uses these predictions to further the structure's survival. Experience and consciousness arise because the chemicals end up modelling and predicting themselves, and so end up reacting to their own thought processes. Hence, you can know things, but also know that you know things.

Who is this you? Which chemical?

 

[PolyHedral]

All of them. What girder is the Golden Gate bridge?

 

[Koldo]

These assertions, which necessarily must posit a master programmer-- same as a WILL, are no better than some of the thestic claims, IMO.

Who are you then? A programmed output?

You seriously need to check on theory of evolution, and abiogenesis.

CONSCIOUSNESS AND ITS PLACE IN NATURE
DAVID J. CHALMERS

CONSCIOUSNESS AND ITS PLACE IN NATURE - DAVID J. CHALMERS - ATHENAEUM LIBRARY OF PHILOSOPHY

-----There is no question that experience is closely associated with physical processes in systems such as brains. It seems that physical processes give rise to experience, at least in the sense that producing a physical system (such as a brain) with the right physical properties inevitably yields corresponding states of experience. But how and why do physical processes give rise to experience? Why do not these processes take place "in the dark," without any accompanying states of experience? This is the central mystery of consciousness.

-----------------------------------

Who is the seer/experiencer/knower?
Do the brain chemicals see and know?

This quote of yours is about the mind-conciousness. Not the will-consciousness you have been talking about.

 

[atanu]

All of them.

Are you sure? Combine all of them and create a brain.

All of them will be leading one to a state called death. You are the one who knows all of them.

(We have had this discussion and I do not want to repeat it again). .
.................................................

I come back to the question whether the emergent mind knows the WILL (or whatever) that drives the sperm, which is the source of a man? Was the essence of a man contained in the sperm?

 

[PolyHedral]

Are you sure? Combine all of them and create a brain.

All of them will be leading one to a state called death. You are the one who knows all of them.

No, I don't. I'd lose track of them almost instantly.

I come back to the question whether the emergent mind knows the WILL (or whatever) that drives the sperm, which is the source of a man? Was the essence of a man contained in the sperm?

The sperm has no will, because it's only a cell, and the actions of cells are dictated by chemistry. And why does Man need an essence? Where is "Golden Gate-ness" in the bridge before it was assembled?

 

[atanu]

You seriously need to check on theory of evolution, and abiogenesis.

Dear Koldo.

You are talking of a theory that you know. The theory does not know you.

This quote of yours is about the mind-conciousness. Not the will-consciousness you have been talking about.

No. Observations need not be experienced as feelings, if there is no agent that gives a meaning to the observation.

 

[Koldo]

Dear Koldo.

You are talking of a theory that you know. The theory does not know you.

No. Observations need not be experienced as feelings, if there is no agent that gives a meaning to the observation.

I suspect you are using your terms quite loosely. Let us clarify. There is something called 'consciousness', and we do not know how exactly it comes to be.
That is the "I".

However, you say there exists something called 'will-consciousness', as if cells had a will of their own. And this is inaccurate as there is no evidence ,as far as i know, that cells have anything close to a 'will' by themselves. They work based on chemical reactions that evolved over time.

 

[atanu]

This quote of yours is about the mind-conciousness. Not the will-consciousness you have been talking about.

What do you understand by above two terms?

Do you mean to say that the development of a plant is not recorded in its seed? Do you mean to say that a sperm is just an inert entity that gathers a body and then somehow becomes an intelligent and living being?

 

[atanu]

However, you say there exists something called 'will-consciousness', as if cells had a will of their own. And this is inaccurate as there is no evidence that cells have anything close to a 'will' by themselves. They work based on chemical reactions that evolved over time.

I will state here that I believe, rationally, that consciousness is the all pervading basis.

But I am ready for a rational discussion, if you restrained from pointing out to my lack of knowledge of theories (as with abiogenesis and TOE) and my inability to understand (like in Willmena's post earlier). Not that I am not ignorant. I am. But these assertions point to your a-priori conclusions. And I will suggest that, if interested, you may read thoroughly the paper I cited above.

I do not hold on to any theory but I do hold to the self evident fact that I can see, think, and know but I do not know how these faculties came into being. Probably, we need to create another thread to discuss consciousness manifesting at various levels and states, and not hijack this thread.

 

[Koldo]

Do you mean to say that a sperm is just an inert entity that gathers a body and then somehow becomes an intelligent and living being?

'Inert' is not a very accurate term.

But, yes, that is it. :yes:

 

[atanu]

'Inert' is not a very accurate term.

But, yes, that is it. :yes:

I do not follow you.

Do you mean to say that the development of a plant is not recorded in its seed? Do you mean to say that a sperm is just an inert entity that gathers a body and then somehow becomes an intelligent and living being?

 

[Koldo]

I will state here that I believe, rationally, that consciousness is the all pervading basis.

But I am ready for a rational discussion, if you restrained from pointing out to my lack of knowledge of theories (as with abiogenesis and TOE) and my inability to understand (like in Willmena's post earlier). Not that I am not ignorant. I am. But these assertions point to your a-priori conclusions. And I will suggest that, if interested, you may read thoroughly the paper I cited above.

I do not hold on to any theory but I do hold to the self evident fact that I can see, think, and know but I do not know how these facilities came into being. Probably, we need to create another thread to discuss consciousness manifesting at various levels and states, and not hijack this thread.

You said there had to be a "master programmer" behind the whole scheme, which is why i pointed out to ToE and abiogenesis. The body programs itself.

 

[newhope101]

With the earthquake and tsunami in Japan in mind, how can anyone believe that s/he exists? What more evidence do we need before we start using a little critical thinking on the whole notion of a lovable God? Or maybe the Japanese people have not prayed enough, or maybe not to the right God?

Or Maybe you know nothing about what you are talking about!
Maybe you are that shallow that you think every one tapped into the right God will be a millionaire because they pray to win Lotto and God should oblidge.

The cost of sin is death and we will all die up untill after Armageddon, whether by tsunami or other causes. The reason God does not interceed is because He needs to show the world and Mankind and the angels that Mankind is unable to rule itself. The state of the world shows He is correct.

Earthquakes, are said to not be increasing by geologists. Certainly their catastrophic results are enhanced by an increasing population. However other reports suggest an increase.
Massive Increase in Earthquakes in 2008 | NowPublic Photo Archives

Regardless the toll from earthquakes has increased with population and our knowledge of them has increased for many reasons including more instrumentation and communication, something not available 100 years ago. What we see now is nothing compared to when the Great Tribulation begins.

"For then there will be GREAT distress, unequaled from the worlds beginning until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no-one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" Mathew Ch24.

So in fact God will inteceed at this point, and the world will change for the better. You just need to hope that in that day you stand as one of the elect or have already died and paid for your sins. Until that day God is demonstrating how useless we are without his guardianship and intervention. Satan nor angel nor mankind will ever be able to alledge that mankind is capable of ruling themselves nor that people will only love Him for what we can get out of Him. There will be always be the faithfull believing through faith, without the grant of every prayer that has nothing to do with drawing closer to God!!!!

And yes,, as much as God is loving, he is equally exacting and He and his Son will rule with rods of iron as well as love. God made the world, he gets to make the rules. We do not have to like them. All those alive at that time will get a final choice prior to Armageddon that, will not involve faith, to follow or die. Many will still choose death, is bible prophesy.

If you knew for sure there was a God and you had to change your ways and beliefs to a certain way, whatever that may be, would you, or could you, do it? I am sure I can no matter whether the JW's, Mormon, Jews or a mix or any other. Are you prepared? These are the questions you all should be asking yourselves!

If your answer is NO. Then the dead will be more fortunate than you, if that day arrives in your life time.

 

[atanu]

You said there had to be a "master programmer" behind the whole scheme, which is why i pointed out to ToE and abiogenesis. The body programs itself.

The body programs itself to death? Who then says "I exist", while the body is alive?

You must know that evolution pertains to organisms and not to bodies. A body with its brain remains at death but not the organism. Darwin does not attempt to answer the nature of organism but he explains its evolution. Darwin does not attempt to bridge epistemic gap between physical and phenomenal truths..

 

[PolyHedral]

The body programs itself to death?

Moslty, yes. Cancer is when that mechanism fails.

 

[Koldo]

I do not follow you.

Do you mean to say that the development of a plant is not recorded in its seed?

The development of a body is recorded in its 'seed'. It is as if the 'seed' was a big blueprint + some workers. However, those workers are mindless zombies, or machines, as you prefer to see it.

So we don't know how exactly the 'conscious' part of the blueprint comes to existence.

Do you mean to say that a sperm is just an inert entity that gathers a body and then somehow becomes an intelligent and living being?

Yes.

 

[Koldo]

The body programs itself to death? Who then says "I exist", while the body is alive?

We do not know who says the "I exist".

You must know that evolution pertains to organisms and not to bodies. A body with its brain remains at death but not the organism. Darwin does not attempt to answer the nature of organism but he explains its evolution. Darwin does not attempt to bridge epistemic gap between physical and phenomenal truths..

Define 'organism'.