About a deity full of love and compassion

[tarasan]

I wasn't refering to subjectivity in this way.
I will continue the answer right below...



But i did mean subjectivity in this way. Isn't the attribute of 'good taste' given to the cheeseburger subjective?

it is that is true the cheeseburger is objective its taste is subjective

My discussion is not directed towards an specific objective reality, rather it is how i, personally, believe such scenarios should be properly framed.

but isnt the scenario of the reality a discription of said reality

Isn't it common to use the objective to express the subjective?
You have probably seen many times already some TV commercials, and in daily conversations, where there is a claim that product X is amazing/awesome/tasteful.

no the product is objective for example, there is a hamburgeris objective

the hamburger tastes good is subjective statement

your product X is objective because it has an outside reality. its subjective to say its awesome/tasteful etc

You are being too vague.

do you want me to quote their doctrines or something

 

[Willamena]

As i see it, every kind of existence can be seen as an illusion. We can only see and know so much in each of them. True enlightment can only be reached via omniscience, and i don't think any human, or whatever we are called in the afterlife, has ever reached such state.

Have you looked a Zen Buddhism at all? "All the world's a bright pearl..." sort of thing? The illusion of reality, if the illusion is real, is a much reality as reality... no?

 

[atanu]

Let us get deeper in this discussion.
What do you call 'being'?

Analogies and metaphors can be given but best is to answer for oneself the following questions:

Ice dies in presence of steam. Is steam, a form of water cruel to ice, another form of water?

A man sleeps peacefully. The same man shrieks in dream nightmare. The same man wakes up and finds the world a big pain in the a--. What has changed during these transitions and what is one's real nature?

 

[atanu]

What do you call 'being'?

It is not possible for word and mind to penetrate the being. That which is not uttered by speech, that by which the word is expressed, know That alone to be Being and not that which can be spoken of or pointed at.

 

[Koldo]

But what is your answer?

It solely depends on how i frame the reality.
However, i do tend to consider 'us' as sentient beings, and 'others' as non sentient things.

I know that it is out of place in this discussion. But there is no other answer. There is pain to ego consciousness, which is as far as science can investigate.

But do you assume it is the only kind of pain?

How do you know? But I am not suggesting to ignore pain and you have avoided the questions.

Aren't all states as real as the others?
Isn't water as real as ice?

 

[Koldo]

Of course we can wonder. We can spend our whole time here wondering. It won't get you anywhere, though.

Correct. However, is it necessary to reach anywhere?
Or maybe, we do get somewhere. Maybe it decides our religion. Maybe it decides how we live.
Sometimes the doubt that arises from an unanswered question is the answer you have been looking for.

 

[atanu]

Aren't all states as real as the others?
Isn't water as real as ice?

Yes. Liquid water is as real as the ice. Both are forms however, of water that remains even when forms change.

 

[tarasan]

Correct. However, is it necessary to reach anywhere?
Or maybe, we do get somewhere. Maybe it decides our religion. Maybe it decides how we live.
Sometimes the doubt that arises from an unanswered question is the answer you have been looking for.

heck wouldnt all this be worth it if we merely began to understand each other

 

[Koldo]

it is that is true the cheeseburger is objective its taste is subjective

Correct. A simple example would be the 'heavens'. The question of existence of 'heavens' is objective. However, whether it is a good place or not is a subjective question.

but isnt the scenario of the reality a discription of said reality

Yes. And some descriptions tend to be more accurate than others.

no the product is objective for example, there is a hamburgeris objective

the hamburger tastes good is subjective statement

your product X is objective because it has an outside reality. its subjective to say its awesome/tasteful etc

Correct. And?

do you want me to quote their doctrines or something

Sure, but just the part refering to omniscience, or something very nearly to it.

 

[tarasan]

Correct. A simple example would be the 'heavens'. The question of existence of 'heavens' is objective. However, whether it is a good place or not is a subjective question.

actually no its not wether heaven is good or not isnt subjective because its meant to be good for everyone. for example in Christian Heaven is paradise, that is an objective attribute of heaven it cant be bad.

Yes. And some descriptions tend to be more accurate than others.

thats an objective cliam to say something is more accurate is to say there is a target of some kind. which is to say that the thing in question has a reality.

Correct. And?

shows your examples were mute

Sure, but just the part refering to omniscience, or something very nearly to it.

i dont have their literature with me man, this is me talking about belief systems, spiritualism and hinduism is a wide field I remember the spiritualist one especially because of the conversation i had with some....interesting people...
i find new age stuff wierd all about being linked with the cosmos or something....

 

[Koldo]

Have you looked a Zen Buddhism at all? "All the world's a bright pearl..." sort of thing? The illusion of reality, if the illusion is real, is a much reality as reality... no?

To whom?
Certainly not to an omniscient being.
illusions of reality are like sides on a dice with infinite sides. Each person has access to a different numbers of sides. The ammount expands through life. However,to comprehend the reality fully you have to look at every side of the dice at the same time. That is only possible with omniscience.

 

[Willamena]

To whom?
Certainly not to an omniscient being.
illusions of reality are like sides on a dice with infinite sides. Each person has access to a different numbers of sides. The ammount expands through life. However,to comprehend the reality fully you have to look at every side of the dice at the same time. That is only possible with omniscience.

Who's asking?

Are you familiar with monism?

 

[Koldo]

Analogies and metaphors can be given but best is to answer for oneself the following questions:

Ice dies in presence of steam. Is steam, a form of water cruel to ice, another form of water?

Steam is another form of water.

A man sleeps peacefully. The same man shrieks in dream nightmare. The same man wakes up and finds the world a big pain in the a--. What has changed during these transitions and what is one's real nature?

I don't think i am qualified to properly say what has changed during these transitions. However, i can say that both are real nature.

It is not possible for word and mind to penetrate the being. That which is not uttered by speech, that by which the word is expressed, know That alone to be Being and not that which can be spoken of or pointed at.

In other words, you do not know for certain.

 

[Koldo]

actually no its not wether heaven is good or not isnt subjective because its meant to be good for everyone. for example in Christian Heaven is paradise, that is an objective attribute of heaven it cant be bad.

Actually, no. That is a subjective attribute. It is often common to take for granted a subjective attribute as if it were objective though.

thats an objective cliam to say something is more accurate is to say there is a target of some kind. which is to say that the thing in question has a reality.

Isn't every subjective thing related to reality in one or another?
How would something subjective exist if its source was not reality?

shows your examples were mute

Come again?

i dont have their literature with me man, this is me talking about belief systems, spiritualism and hinduism is a wide field I remember the spiritualist one especially because of the conversation i had with some....interesting people...
i find new age stuff wierd all about being linked with the cosmos or something....

So you aren't sure.

 

[Koldo]

Who's asking?

Are you familiar with monism?

Not much.

 

[tarasan]

Actually, no. That is a subjective attribute. It is often common to take for granted a subjective attribute as if it were objective though.

no for the christian heaven the goodness is a reality it isnt an opinion, now i could be wrong! i can make an objective cliam and be wrong about it, e.g. the christian heaven mightnt exist. however to say that christian heaven is subjective is wrong.



[/quote]

Isn't every subjective thing related to reality in one or another?
How would something subjective exist if its source was not reality?

thats the point subjectivism has no reality its just your opinion so no there is no realation.



[/quote]Come again?



So you aren't sure.[/quote]

ohhh im sure i just couldnt tell you the name of them. they did wierd things those peeps (at least wierd to me)

 

[Koldo]

no for the christian heaven the goodness is a reality it isnt an opinion, now i could be wrong! i can make an objective cliam and be wrong about it, e.g. the christian heaven mightnt exist. however to say that christian heaven is subjective is wrong.

The christian heaven is not subjective. It being 'good' is. Can you properly define 'good' in objective terms solely?

thats the point subjectivism has no reality its just your opinion so no there is no realation.

But isn't my opinion based on reality?
It is subjective because it is my interpration and there are many others possible. It is more accurate because i see the mark where others don't.
Marks have a value that was assigned to them; they don't have a value as default to themselves.

It reminds me of how money works. The value of money is subjective. However, given on how many people agree with those assigned values we started treating it as objective.

ohhh im sure i just couldnt tell you the name of them. they did wierd things those peeps (at least wierd to me)

Weird...things...
Like...what?

+18 stuff?

 

[tarasan]

The christian heaven is not subjective. It being 'good' is. Can you properly define 'good' in objective terms solely?

yes because Christianity have a grounding for goodness which is God, so we are able to objectively cliam that heaven is good (again that isnt to say that we cant be wrong about it, it just means that i am making a cliam about reality)

But isn't my opinion based on reality?
It is subjective because it is my interpration and there are many others possible. It is more accurate because i see the mark where others don't.

your really misunderstanding this.......

it doesnt matter if its your opinion or not if you make a statement about how something is then you are making an objective cliam. your claiming it has a reality outside yourself, just because there are many other interpretations doesnt mean its a subjective cliam.

Marks have a value that was assigned to them; they don't have a value as default to themselves.
It reminds me of how money works. The value of money is subjective. However, given on how many people agree with those assigned values we started treating it as objective.

that doesnt make it objective though it still has no reality. thats the point

Weird...things...
Like...what?

+18 stuff?

no just wierd things about being part of the cosmos and stuff...... like..... that....

 

[Koldo]

yes because Christianity have a grounding for goodness which is God, so we are able to objectively cliam that heaven is good (again that isnt to say that we cant be wrong about it, it just means that i am making a cliam about reality)

If you find out 'heavens' is not a good place, can't i think the opposite, and vice-versa? Therefore, isn't the attribute 'good' subjective?

your really misunderstanding this.......

it doesnt matter if its your opinion or not if you make a statement about how something is then you are making an objective cliam. your claiming it has a reality outside yourself, just because there are many other interpretations doesnt mean its a subjective cliam.

I don't get it here.
If i remember well you agreed that saying "cheeseburger is tasteful" is subjective. Therefore, it is an example of subjective claim about how something is.

that doesnt make it objective though it still has no reality. thats the point

Isn't the value of exchange a reality among our daily lives?
Isn't it something subjective being treated as objective?

 

[Skeptisch]

just a few thoughts btw the dont agree with either

The OP is about a deity full of love and compassion… so Tarasan, or anyone else, would you agree that there is not a speck of (scientific) evidence that God has any compassion or love at all?