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About a deity full of love and compassion…

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
If the universe is simply the universe, it's not sentient. It just is. It's neither loving nor compassionate (or hateful and malevolent).

It doesn't take steps; but simply is. And it doesn't prevent anything; it just does or does not.
Right. I can (from this point of view) comprehensively say about "god" that it can prevent things, but I cannot comprehensively say the same thing about "the universe," because one *is* sentient and the other contains sentience (or however a person distinguishes them). On one hand, an image --a picture painted --of what god is, and on the other hand an image of what the universe is.

These two images are strikingly different, such that when you hear "god is the universe," and try to bring the two images together, one of them is going to be compromised. It's inevitable: in order to equate them, one of the images must warp from what was defined --for example, either sentience gets subtracted from "god," or "the universe" gains a god-like sentience, or perhaps some other way, but one of these pictures has to be warped in order to equate them. All dependent on the way we've defined them.

In pantheism, both these images get painted such that when they are held up side-by-side, even though they are not the same thing, nothing is compromised by bringing the images together. This should suggest that in having to warp one of the images, pantheism isn't being seen.

Hope this helps answer your question.

Yes, but the explanation is of the universe, in a seeming poetic sense. The universe has cause and effect, and we all know that.

The post is quoted again below for reference:

God is life. God is love. God is death.

Why use the word god at all? Why not just say the universe includes life, love, and death? Death is the cessation of biological functioning, so I don't see the reason for obfuscating two otherwise appropriate definitions.
Because god and the universe are both painted in definition. The world is poetic --you and I are artists. When there is no compromise made in bringing together the painting of "god" and the painting of "the universe," both or either word's adequate and appropriate to describe that bit the world.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Right. I can (from this point of view) comprehensively say about "god" that it can prevent things, but I cannot comprehensively say the same thing about "the universe," because one *is* sentient and the other contains sentience (or however a person distinguishes them). On one hand, an image --a picture painted --of what god is, and on the other hand an image of what the universe is.

These two images are strikingly different, such that when you hear "god is the universe," and try to bring the two images together, one of them is going to be compromised. It's inevitable: in order to equate them, one of the images must warp from what was defined --for example, either sentience gets subtracted from "god," or "the universe" gains a god-like sentience, or perhaps some other way, but one of these pictures has to be warped in order to equate them. All dependent on the way we've defined them.

In pantheism, both these images get painted such that when they are held up side-by-side, even though they are not the same thing, nothing is compromised by bringing the images together. This should suggest that in having to warp one of the images, pantheism isn't being seen.

Hope this helps answer your question.


Because god and the universe are both painted in definition. The world is poetic --you and I are artists. When there is no compromise made in bringing together the painting of "god" and the painting of "the universe," both or either word's adequate and appropriate to describe that bit the world.


By pantheistic view, isn't God impersonal?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I could not agree with you more but have a hard time to see what we disagree on.
I guess I took your post to mean that we could use logic and reason to build up to pantheism; that's what I disagreed with.

I don't think that logic and reason can tear pantheism down, but I don't think they can build pantheism up either.

... but it sounds like I may have misunderstood you originally.

Now reread post #4.
And? Does that mean that letting the child die is a good thing?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
What does it mean to be "impersonal"? (How have you painted that?)

Significantly, is the observer of the universe a part of the universe being observed?

As far as i know, pantheism doesn't see God as an "I".
That is what i mean by impersonal.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
As far as i know, pantheism doesn't see God as an "I".
That is what i mean by impersonal.
Pantheism sees everything as God. Is "I" a part of everything? If so, there's at least one bit of God that is personal.

Within that distinction, there is also a version of "'I' is everything".
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Or, you could always just use the standard Christian refute, "god works in mysterious ways". Isn't that enough to tame your skepticism?

No. That is sad. "Mysterious ways" is god's involvement with my love of my Gwynnies. That's dang mysterious. But when we witness the needless suffering of others, it is good to assess the god within, rather than to blame the god without.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
The word "God" is terrible to describe the pantheistic view. It carries a complete different meaning than it is usually expected. One has to wonder why it is even used in the first place by pantheism.

Seriously, there should be a new term for the pantheism. The word "God" doesn't fit it.

I'm a deist. I use the term god because I have an agenda. ;)

BTW the puppy, are you kidding me? Nice. ;)
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Pantheism sees everything as God. Is "I" a part of everything? If so, there's at least one bit of God that is personal.

Within that distinction, there is also a version of "'I' is everything".

However, there is a major difference between being a "part of everything" and "everything".

Which is why pantheism holds the idea that God is impersonal.

I got lost in your last sentence, what do you mean by "I is everything"?
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I got lost in your last sentence, what do you mean by "I is everything"?
Construct awareness. "Self" is in Buddhism and Hinduism "the habitual tendency to construct an identity from a stream of physical and subjective phenomena." When it's understood that mind is dependent upon phenomena --self-awareness being phenomenal along-side everything else in the world --and awareness of phenomena is mind, the whole world can be grasped as a construct of mind.

Something like that.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Construct awareness. "Self" is in Buddhism and Hinduism "the habitual tendency to construct an identity from a stream of physical and subjective phenomena." When it's understood that mind is dependent upon phenomena --self-awareness being phenomenal along-side everything else in the world --and awareness of phenomena is mind, the whole world can be grasped as a construct of mind.

Something like that.

I am not sure if i understood what you meant correctly.
Are you making a mix of Solipsism and Pantheism?
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Without awareness of [anything else], there is no "I", no self.

But what did you mean? :)

My Gwynnies! :D

You know I have no meaning... but that we can speculate Without awareness of [anything else], there is no "I", no self. that "i" is not quite everything, but a subset of everything. (Of course there's math, it's me!) ;)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
And? Does that mean that letting the child die is a good thing?

And the question you are asking isn't valid.

God will stand back and let you...and everyone else die.
We were never meant to live forever...physically.

No life after death for you?
Your personal denial is suppose to suit everyone?

As for children dying....
They probably have a better chance of crossing over into the kingdom.

Perhaps the next question you ask might be from a greater perspective.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
And the question you are asking isn't valid.

God will stand back and let you...and everyone else die.
We were never meant to live forever...physically.

No life after death for you?
Your personal denial is suppose to suit everyone?

As for children dying....
They probably have a better chance of crossing over into the kingdom.

Perhaps the next question you ask might be from a greater perspective.
If God considers death a bad thing, why does anyone die?
If God considers death a good thing (as someone earlier suggested), why is anyone still alive?
It's got to be one of the two.
 
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