About Individual Human Life Beginning at Conception...

[Penumbra]

Not when discussing a species trait, not really.

Are you agreeing that sapience is not a good yardstick to use here, or disagreeing with the presented definition of sapience?

 

[Storm]

Are you agreeing that sapience is not a good yardstick to use here, or disagreeing with the presented definition of sapience?

In order, yes, and kinda.

The 'kinda' because while wisdom, etc. are part of the literal definition, those particular descriptors are individual, not based on a species' cognitive capacity. I'm having the damnedest time figuring out how to say that, but since we agree it's not a good yardstick for the abortion discussion, what say we just drop it?

 

[crossfire]

When I was pregnant with my son, he showed a definite dislike to Mick Jaggar's singing, which persisted until he was about a year old. He would kick me when I was pregnant with him when one of his songs came on the radio, and he would start to cry after he was born when one of his songs would come on. Mick Jaggar was the only one he would react this way to. He seemed to enjoy other music. (Individual quirk?)

 

[Storm]

When I was pregnant with my son, he showed a definite dislike to Mick Jaggar's singing, which persisted until he was about a year old. He would kick me when I was pregnant with him when one of his songs came on the radio, and he would start to cry after he was born when one of his songs would come on. Mick Jaggar was the only one he would react this way to. He seemed to enjoy other music.

My son liked drum music. Kodo, taiko in general, and Bear McCreary's work from BSG.

 

[Alceste]

I didn't wish that at all. *sigh*



I acknowledge that the rights of a very few males who would want this right must be sacrificed for the greater good. In other words you win. Is it really necessary to throw all this in my face? Some of us men are not the horrible abusive ******** that many are. Some of us are actually good guys and if I chose to feel sorry for the fact that our rights have been sacrificed for your good you could at least be a little considerate of it. Take your victory and be happy with it.

I'm not trying to be harsh. It's just that on a purely practical level, the belief in a father's right to interfere with an abortion is a nightmare scenario for a woman. There was a court case in the US where a man's family sought an injunction against his girlfriend's abortion and the issue had to be fought in court before she was allowed to go through with the procedure, causing the abortion to be delayed and adding to the expense and stress. I don't think anyone would call that an ideal scenario, since most people agree that the earlier an abortion can take place, the better.

I'm all for a man's right to use persuasion, which in many cases is likely to be successful
I simply draw the line at force. That's not to say I have no sympathy. An unplanned pregnancy is difficult for everyone involved, and I don't discount the disappointment a man might feel if he wants a child and the mother doesn't. On a practical level, though, we should try to understand that it is a personal medical decision. Otherwise it's a big can of worms.

Anyway, I apologize if you felt attacked. It's an issue I feel strongly about, and I'm concerned that American women are losing ground. It's nothing personal. I respect you and your opinions.

I think that the term "capacity" can be taken a few ways here.

Yes, I agree that the "hardware" for sensation and self-awareness is there at viability, but quite a bit of the brain function in the fetus is suppressed until the switch from prenatal circulation to postnatal circulation that occurs at birth, regardless of gestational age.


I agree with you that very few women - if any - would choose this option. The reason I bother to discuss it is because I think it speaks to the reasoning for why a woman should have the right to choose at all. If we look at abortion as an issue of bodily security, then it seems absurd to me that if the woman's bodily security is absolute before viability and after delivery (... and even continues after her death), it should be compromised in that period from viability to delivery.

But I should probably point something out: the right I'm talking about is the right to end the pregnancy, not necessarily the right to abort the pregnancy in a way that terminates the fetus. If a live birth is what happens, then so be it.

Fair enough. I balk at "going there" (third trimester abortions) partly because it's a) a situation that almost never occurs in the real world, and b) territory where the anti-choice movement feels most comfortable.

Evidence suggests that a fetus is both anesthetized and sedated in the womb until birth, but most people start thinking of it as a baby around the time they feel it moving independently. So I'm comfortable with restrictions at that point, as long as there are no other obstacles in the first trimester.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I'm not trying to be harsh. It's just that on a purely practical level, the belief in a father's right to interfere with an abortion is a nightmare scenario for a woman. There was a court case in the US where a man's family sought an injunction against his girlfriend's abortion and the issue had to be fought in court before she was allowed to go through with the procedure, causing the abortion to be delayed and adding to the expense and stress. I don't think anyone would call that an ideal scenario, since most people agree that the earlier an abortion can take place, the better.

There is no ideal scenario with an unplanned pregnancy and as I stated, the woman's choice has more weight than the relatively few men who would choose to raise a child on their own.

I'm all for a man's right to use persuasion, which in many cases is likely to be successful
I simply draw the line at force. That's not to say I have no sympathy. An unplanned pregnancy is difficult for everyone involved, and I don't discount the disappointment a man might feel if he wants a child and the mother doesn't. On a practical level, though, we should try to understand that it is a personal medical decision. Otherwise it's a big can of worms.

Of course, I certainly have not advocated the use of force or legislature.

Anyway, I apologize if you felt attacked. It's an issue I feel strongly about, and I'm concerned that American women are losing ground. It's nothing personal. I respect you and your opinions.

Oh I knew it wasn't a personal attack, more of an aggressive defense of your views. And if Romney gets elected I fear women will lose a great deal of ground.

And never fear, you have my utmost respect as well. :yes:

 

[Alceste]

There is no ideal scenario with an unplanned pregnancy and as I stated, the woman's choice has more weight than the relatively few men who would choose to raise a child on their own.



Of course, I certainly have not advocated the use of force or legislature.



Oh I knew it wasn't a personal attack, more of an aggressive defense of your views. And if Romney gets elected I fear women will lose a great deal of ground.

And never fear, you have my utmost respect as well. :yes:

Why thank you for saying so! I'm only going to get outraged if I think we're talking about legislation interfering with a woman's right to privacy and bodily security. If it's only a matter of opinion, and the differing opinions of others are respected, I'm cool with whatever.

On a personal note, when I had an abortion at twenty, it might have made a big difference at the time if my boyfriend had told me he wanted to keep it before I got the shot, as opposed to after. I just assumed he didn't want to become a dad at 22, because who does? In retrospect, I know we should have talked about it, but hindsight is 20-20, right? He probably could have persuaded me, but he didn't try.

 

[Willamena]

I assume for the sake of this thread that no one on RF would actually argue that human life begins at conception, and instead that people who appear to argue that human life begins at conception actually mean to say something along the lines of individual human life begins at conception.

If so, if individual human life begins at conception, then precisely what makes it an individual human life"? What does that word "individual" mean in this context? And what doesn't it mean?

And why is the presence of an individual human life a rational basis on which to oppose abortion?

Although this thread is in the debate section, I myself am not so much interested in debating this issue as I am interested in reading the sound answers, if any, that will be offered to those questions.

Good topic.

An individual stands alone (metaphorically) against the world. They have acquired a sense of self that lifts a "me" apart from the world to be something that can interact with the world at large. In terms of the child still in the womb, individuality is claimed on behalf of what they will eventually become--their potential to "be".

 

[NIX]

individual means 'one' separate 'stand alone' thing.
in·di·vid·u·al/ˌindəˈvijo͞oəl/

Adjective:Single; separate: "individual tiny flowers".
Noun:A single human being as distinct from a group, class, or family.
Synonyms:adjective. personal - particular - private - single - peculiar
noun. person - man - personage - personality



A life that can exist ONLY in total connection with another- as it cannot be separated biologically from its lifegiver- cannot exist as an individual. It's a self defining position.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

individual means 'one' separate 'stand alone' thing.
in·di·vid·u·al/ˌindəˈvijo͞oəl/

Adjective:Single; separate: "individual tiny flowers".
Noun:A single human being as distinct from a group, class, or family.
Synonyms:adjective. personal - particular - private - single - peculiar
noun. person - man - personage - personality



A life that can exist ONLY in total connection with another- as it cannot be separated biologically from its lifegiver- cannot exist as an individual. It's a self defining position.

Not even your example supports your claim. An individual flower can't exist without the stalk and roots. Cut it and it will die. Yet it is still an individual flower, dead or not.

Individual in this context is very, very subjective. You are saying that it is once the connection of the fetus to the mother is severed and the fetus can live on its own. Others say its when the soul enters the body, generally at conception. For me, its when there are individual separate brain waves. The only thing for sure is that the answer is not simple.