• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

About Individual Human Life Beginning at Conception...

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Very difficult question. At what point during the pregnancy does the fetish become an individual? I have no idea. I believe that there is a point where this happens and I don't think its at conception but when? No idea.

As for abortion, also a difficult question. I have no problem with a woman having the choice but I wish there was a way for fathers to also have a say. I believe if the father wants the child and the mother does not the father should be allowed to offer to take the child once its born leaving the mother with no obligation. Unfortunately this would cause a lot of logistical difficulties and I see the point in giving the woman all the responsibility. I still feel for the fathers who would have chosen to keep their children, no matter how few they may be.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I'm not doing anything deliberately. I notice we talk passed each other a lot. Just trying to address your responses.:shrug:

An individual life is a life even if they aren't as sapient or intelligent as others.
Right. What I'm saying is that the fact that a zygote is a human life does not make it a person.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I'm perfectly comfortable not to try to pigeonhole fetal development into categories that can be encapsulated with language. To me, during the gradual process through which a separate sperm and egg become a born baby, the entity in question is neither an individual human being nor a bunch of human cells. If I need to discuss fetal development, I prefer to use the medically accurate terminology for each stage. Blastoma -> blastocyst -> embryo -> fetus etc. (even though I often have to look up the correct term for any given stage).

I feel that the only reason the question of individuality or personhood is an issue is that we've invented those words / concepts, and our language constructs demand dualism. Person vs. non-person, individual vs. non-individual, etc. Such notions have little correlation to physical reality.

I question (or flat-out disagree with, actually) the idea that if the fetus is an individual person,its rights preclude abortion. There are very few circumstances where a person is compelled to sustain the life of another, and no cases where a person is compelldd to provide their own body to do it.


Why can't this be addressed by allowing the pregnancy to be induced? As long as the woman has the option to end the pregnancy if she chooses, her rights are preserved. If it ends with a live birth, so be it.

I heard an argument a while back that clicked with me: using the point of viability as the dividing line for abortion makes absolutely no sense. In effect, it says "because the fetus no longer needs your body, you're obliged to provide your body to it." It's inherently contradictory.

I support viability as a practical deadline for a woman to make her decision. By that time, the physical damage to her body has mostly been done, and the entity has the capacity for sensation and self-awareness. Luckily, it's kind of a non-issue, since virtually all abortions occur long before this point. I see no reason to argue for a right that women don't even want, such as the right to have an abortion instead of a live birth when the bun in the oven is fully cooked.

Very difficult question. At what point during the pregnancy does the fetish become an individual? I have no idea. I believe that there is a point where this happens and I don't think its at conception but when? No idea.

As for abortion, also a difficult question. I have no problem with a woman having the choice but I wish there was a way for fathers to also have a say. I believe if the father wants the child and the mother does not the father should be allowed to offer to take the child once its born leaving the mother with no obligation. Unfortunately this would cause a lot of logistical difficulties and I see the point in giving the woman all the responsibility. I still feel for the fathers who would have chosen to keep their children, no matter how few they may be.

That doesn't leave the mother with no obligation. It obliges her to subject her body to extreme discomfort for the better part of a year, and permanent physical damage. I'm all for men looking after their born children, but you have absolutely no right to use another person's body for your own purposes against their will in any other scenario. Why would you make an exception for pregnancy?

Right. What I'm saying is that the fact that a zygote is a human life does not make it a person.

I agree. Not a person, not a non-person. :)
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member

I suppose we should clarify our terms. When I say individual I mean a conscious separate from the mother. I suppose brain activity could be an indicator, at least for the scientifically minded. The more religious minded will claim that the soul exists at conception and that is the point of individuality. But for those who claim there is no individuality until the umbilical is cut I would say that's going a bit far.

Does that make my answer make more sense?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I suppose we should clarify our terms. When I say individual I mean a conscious separate from the mother. I suppose brain activity could be an indicator, at least for the scientifically minded. The more religious minded will claim that the soul exists at conception and that is the point of individuality. But for those who claim there is no individuality until the umbilical is cut I would say that's going a bit far.

Does that make my answer make more sense?
ppsssssssssssssstt! She was teasing you for typing "fetish" instead of "fetus."
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
That doesn't leave the mother with no obligation. It obliges her to subject her body to extreme discomfort for the better part of a year, and permanent physical damage. I'm all for men looking after their born children, but you have absolutely no right to use another person's body for your own purposes against their will in any other scenario. Why would you make an exception for pregnancy?

Yes, yes, we have discussed this into the ground many times and you win. Nine months of discomfort and possible danger to the mother is far to extreme of a punishment to inflect on her just because the father of the child would like to raise it, with or without her support. You will have to forgive the fact that I wish there was a better way. Now lets move on rather than running off on a tangent we already know the answer to.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
ppsssssssssssssstt! She was teasing you for typing "fetish" instead of "fetus."

original.jpg
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Yes, yes, we have discussed this into the ground many times and you win. Nine months of discomfort and possible danger to the mother is far to extreme of a punishment to inflect on her just because the father of the child would like to raise it, with or without her support. You will have to forgive the fact that I wish there was a better way. Now lets move on rather than running off on a tangent we already know the answer to.

Why not wish science could find a way for the father to gestate the fetus, or have it gestate in a lab, rather than wish for the law to require that a woman relinquish responsibility for her personal medical health to a man if he decides he would prefer to make those decisions for her?

If he can force a woman to go through pregnancy and child birth to help him realize his personal aspirations, why not breast augmentation? Or, if he doesn't want children, why not allow him to force her to get a tubal ligation?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Why not wish science could find a way for the father to gestate the fetus, or have it gestate in a lab, rather than wish for the law to require that a woman relinquish responsibility for her personal medical health to a man if he decides he would prefer to make those decisions for her?

If he can force a woman to go through pregnancy and child birth to help him realize his personal aspirations, why not breast augmentation? Or, if he doesn't want children, why not allow him to force her to get a tubal ligation?
Now, now. I don't think you're being entirely fair to Trey. There's no reason to assume those aren't among the methods he wishes were possible, and he's made his pro-choice stance clear.

He's not wrong in wishing there were ways to accomodate the father as well. I share that wish, and can't imagine how devastating it would be to be powerless to prevent your child's abortion.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Why not wish science could find a way for the father to gestate the fetus, or have it gestate in a lab, rather than wish for the law to require that a woman relinquish responsibility for her personal medical health to a man if he decides he would prefer to make those decisions for her?

I didn't wish that at all. *sigh*

If he can force a woman to go through pregnancy and child birth to help him realize his personal aspirations, why not breast augmentation? Or, if he doesn't want children, why not allow him to force her to get a tubal ligation?

I acknowledge that the rights of a very few males who would want this right must be sacrificed for the greater good. In other words you win. Is it really necessary to throw all this in my face? Some of us men are not the horrible abusive ******** that many are. Some of us are actually good guys and if I chose to feel sorry for the fact that our rights have been sacrificed for your good you could at least be a little considerate of it. Take your victory and be happy with it.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
At what point do you figure the organism is sapient enough?
Sapience includes wisdom and reason. Not even healthy full born babies have those traits yet.

Probably not the wisest yardstick to use here.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
For something to be a person, shouldn't it have a personality? And how is personhood to be defined in meaningful biological terms?
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For something to be a person, shouldn't it have a personality?
Focusing on this part of the question, I don't think having a personality is a true or false thing, or even something specific to persons depending on how its defined (with the observation that the word 'person' is indeed in the word noted nonetheless).

If a person has two cats, they're going to have different 'personalities', the way the term is commonly used. A pet lover will notice different temperaments in their cats, dogs, birds, etc.

And if that's not considered sufficient to be a 'personality', then the differences in personal quality between healthy-born human infants would not be sufficient to label them as having a personality. Intelligent adult animals are more intelligent and socially complex than a human baby.

Is a 3-month old human child a person?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Sapience includes wisdom and reason. Not even healthy full born babies have those traits yet.

Probably not the wisest yardstick to use here.

That was why I thought intelligence level as not a very good gauge for person-hood. What about the ability to feel and perceive, sentience may be more appropriate.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I support viability as a practical deadline for a woman to make her decision. By that time, the physical damage to her body has mostly been done, and the entity has the capacity for sensation and self-awareness.
I think that the term "capacity" can be taken a few ways here.

Yes, I agree that the "hardware" for sensation and self-awareness is there at viability, but quite a bit of the brain function in the fetus is suppressed until the switch from prenatal circulation to postnatal circulation that occurs at birth, regardless of gestational age.

Luckily, it's kind of a non-issue, since virtually all abortions occur long before this point. I see no reason to argue for a right that women don't even want, such as the right to have an abortion instead of a live birth when the bun in the oven is fully cooked.
I agree with you that very few women - if any - would choose this option. The reason I bother to discuss it is because I think it speaks to the reasoning for why a woman should have the right to choose at all. If we look at abortion as an issue of bodily security, then it seems absurd to me that if the woman's bodily security is absolute before viability and after delivery (... and even continues after her death), it should be compromised in that period from viability to delivery.

But I should probably point something out: the right I'm talking about is the right to end the pregnancy, not necessarily the right to abort the pregnancy in a way that terminates the fetus. If a live birth is what happens, then so be it.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
At what point do you figure the organism is sapient enough?
I honestly don't feel qualified to draw that line, which is why I stick with viability.

Sapience includes wisdom and reason. Not even healthy full born babies have those traits yet.

Probably not the wisest yardstick to use here.
Not when discussing a species trait, not really.
 
Top