About Jinns

[TashaN]

Actually I think the Qur'an is relevant, but only because it was written in the 7th century CE, not before. And not in the way you think.

The origin of Islam only existed with Muhammad, also in the 7th century CE. Before Muhammad, the nomadic Arab clans and tribes were polytheistic.

Yours (and other Muslims) assertion that the Qur'an (and Islam) existed before Muhammad's time and that Allah is the original author of the Qur'an, is only based on faith, not facts. You have no physical evidences to prove such thing, just as you have no evidences of the existence of a god.

Qur'an, Islam and Muslims only began with Muhammad, and without supporting evidences they didn't exist until Muhammad. If you believe it to be so, then I can't argue you what you believe because you are entitled to your belief and faith, but don't confuse faith with fact, because they are not always mutually inclusive.

You have no proof of the existence of jinn, let alone angels or demons, and more importantly, of Allah (just as Jews and Christians have no proof).

And I need far more than just your prophet's words (or any other prophets' for that matter).

In fact, Abraham was in Arabia before Mohammed and that's how ALL Arabia without exception entered to Islam. Then later on idols were brought by a leader of one of the tribes, and this is how they set up partners with Allah. They weren't originally pagan, but they worshipped idols along with Allah because they thought it will make them closer to Allah. So, there you go, Islam was there before Mohammed.

 

[gnostic]

In fact, Abraham was in Arabia before Mohammed and that's how ALL Arabia without exception entered to Islam. Then later on idols were brought by a leader of one of the tribes, and this is how they set up partners with Allah. They weren't originally pagan, but they worshipped idols along with Allah because they thought it will make them closer to Allah. So, there you go, Islam was there before Mohammed.

That's the thing.

You see Islam existing before Muhammad. I don't see it as so.

And you have no evidence beyond the Qur'an and Hadiths that Abraham entered the Arabian Peninsula. It is certainly not recorded in the Tanakh (or OT bible). Literary evidences are only good as far as you can stretch it, because without independent sources to support the Qur'an.

Claiming that Allah is the author of Qur'an doesn't mean much to anyone except for the Muslims, which is no better than Joseph Smith's claim of translating gold tablet, supposedly written by ancient Israelite tribe living in the American continents. You have faith on such claim is good and well, but don't expect everyone else to take it seriously.

 

[TashaN]

That's the thing.

You see Islam existing before Muhammad. I don't see it as so.

And you have no evidence beyond the Qur'an and Hadiths that Abraham entered the Arabian Peninsula. It is certainly not recorded in the Tanakh (or OT bible). Literary evidences are only good as far as you can stretch it, because without independent sources to support the Qur'an.

Claiming that Allah is the author of Qur'an doesn't mean much to anyone except for the Muslims, which is no better than Joseph Smith's claim of translating gold tablet, supposedly written by ancient Israelite tribe living in the American continents. You have faith on such claim is good and well, but don't expect everyone else to take it seriously.

Then why Arabs were believing in Allah? they weren't christians nor jews. It's well recorded in history that beside worshipping idols, they were believing in Allah. Where did that come from if wasn't from Abraham? you tell me!

 

[gnostic]

you tell me!

There's no need to get upset. You know very well that I may have different view on the subject.

It's well recorded in history that beside worshipping idols, they were believing in Allah. Where did that come from if wasn't from Abraham?

It is not as well-recorded as you think. As far as history is concern, there were no recorded history until the 5th century Greek historian Herodotus started recording the history of Persia, along with other places, like Mesopotamia, Levantine, Egypt and Arabia.

Most of the ancient history, comes from Greek or Roman sources.

And they found that Allah was only one god among many. There's no pre-Islamic record that Abraham was the one who brought Allah among the polytheistic pantheon. Do you have older non-Islamic records that say Abraham was the one who brought Allah among the Arabs? I would to see it, if you do? Because that's the only way you can prove to me.

Allah was said to fathered a number of daughters, goddesses. Yes, Allah was a creator god for the pagan Arabs, but only one of two (or 3) creator deities.

---------------

Again, we are off-topic. This is supposed to be about Jinns.

Maybe we can start topic about Abraham and the pagan Arabs?

 

[TashaN]

There's no need to get upset. You know very well that I may have different view on the subject.

I'm not upset at all, and i don't know why you think i'm.

It is not as well-recorded as you think. As far as history is concern, there were no recorded history until the 5th century Greek historian Herodotus started recording the history of Persia, along with other places, like Mesopotamia, Levantine, Egypt and Arabia.

Most of the ancient history, comes from Greek or Roman sources.

It's so sad that people in the West don't recognize what arabs and Muslims write about their history. History will considered to be a real history ONLY through westerners eyes. I don't know whether i should take that as an insult or just as a sign for westerners ignorance of muslim and arab recordings of history.

And they found that Allah was only one god among many. There's no pre-Islamic record that Abraham was the one who brought Allah among the polytheistic pantheon. Do you have older non-Islamic records that say Abraham was the one who brought Allah among the Arabs? I would to see it, if you do? Because that's the only way you can prove to me.

Excuse me? so you mean ALL arabs and Muslims are liars and only non-muslims are truthful? that's why you want non-muslim records? where on earth should i bring one for you? you are the one who should look for that because i'm familiar with muslims and arabs resources, not english ones.

Allah was said to fathered a number of daughters, goddesses. Yes, Allah was a creator god for the pagan Arabs, but only one of two (or 3) creator deities.

Wrong. Please show me who is the scholar who claimed such a thing. Allah was the ONLY Creator in the eyes of arabs before Islam, but they were claiming that he has daughters, etc.

Again, we are off-topic. This is supposed to be about Jinns.

Maybe we can start topic about Abraham and the pagan Arabs?

I would love to. Please direct me to it once you start it.

 

[gnostic]

I'm not upset at all, and i don't know why you think i'm.

Just that you had used exclaimation mark at the end. When I read it out, loud, it sounded either you were upset or even irritated.

Excuse me? so you mean ALL arabs and Muslims are liars and only non-muslims are truthful?

If you have read any of my posts or topics on the matters of the bible or Christian theology, you will see that I treat their sources of Christianity and Judaism as myths. Myths as being fictional stories; made-up (or invented) literature in order to understand some magical or divine which they don't really understand. Or literature that adapted other literature to suit their period and their agenda.

Did you wanted me to treat your religion differently or better than other Abrahamic religions? Do you want me to treat it better than pagan religions?

Well, if you want that, then you will need better and real evidences to back up your prophet's claims. Any miracle without supporting evidences to prove it was more than miracle, is required before I can even trust it remotely.

that's why you want non-muslim records? where on earth should i bring one for you? you are the one who should look for that because i'm familiar with muslims and arabs resources, not english ones.

Of course. I would like to see non-Muslim Arabic sources and any independent sources of the time before Muhammad. If what is written in the Qur'an, then the more sources you have in the period of the biblical time, the better.

I am not singling out just the Qur'an or other Islamic sources. This goes for the Tanakh and the Bible too. Any old sources that paralleled with the events of bible or qur'an, to support them, would be considered.

 

[Muffled]

Pagan? Hello??? I already mentioned that they were created before Adam was ever created.

Certainly Jinns appear in Arabian folklore. Are they not what we refer to as Genies. They had godlike powers which makes a lot of sense in relation to other religions that have an ancestral memory of the gods. There is no doubt in my mind that the gods existed before Adam and Eve. The gods had knowledge of good and evil which explains why Adam and Eve were kept in sanctuary away from their influence.

 

[Bowman]

The spiritual beings known as djinns or jinns figured largely in the Qur'an; even more so than the hadiths. There are no jinns in the bible.

The Koranic Jinn are the demons (fallen angels) as spoken of in the Book of Revelation.

 

[gnostic]

The word Jinn comes from the Arabic root JNN from which derives multiple words, all having some sense of 'concealment'...

Actually the word jinn has its root in the Latin word, genius, or plural as genii. The genii were spirits or household deities (like the penates or lares) in the pagan Roman religion.

 

[Rakhel]

Two things.
1. Shaytan is mentioned in the Tanakh. In our books he is mentioned in Job. He is call Ha-Satan, but this was a title or job, and not restricted to one angel.

2 There is a Jewish folklore called the Lesser Key of Solomon.(author unknown). It is believed to have been written by Solomon, himself. It talks of demons, or Djinn.

 

[TashaN]

Sorry gnostic, it seems i didn't get back to this thread in the past when you have written new posts. Do you still need my reply to your old posts or you have new things in mind?

Two things.
1. Shaytan is mentioned in the Tanakh. In our books he is mentioned in Job. He is call Ha-Satan, but this was a title or job, and not restricted to one angel.

2 There is a Jewish folklore called the Lesser Key of Solomon.(author unknown). It is believed to have been written by Solomon, himself. It talks of demons, or Djinn.

1- Shaytan is a title and in Islam it can be of demon or human--but not angels--who would inspire others to do evil things.

2- Solomon was controlling demons in your scriptures, right?

 

[Rakhel]

1- Shaytan is a title and in Islam it can be of demon or human--but not angels--who would inspire others to do evil things.

Yes, I know that in Islam Shaytan is viewed as a title for a Djinn who is evil. In Judaism, he is an angel who is doing G-d's will.
I was pointing out that the name satan is mentioned in the Tanakh.

2- Solomon was controlling demons in your scriptures, right?

It is folklore that Solomon used Spirits, or djinn, to build the temple. Is it in our scriptures? Not that I have seen.

 

[gnostic]

Sorry gnostic, it seems i didn't get back to this thread in the past when you have written new posts. Do you still need my reply to your old posts or you have new things in mind?

You can if you want to. I will read should you respond, regardless.

1- Shaytan is a title and in Islam it can be of demon or human--but not angels--who would inspire others to do evil things.

To the Jews, Satan wasn't evil. He was an angel of God, who did the bidding of God, which was to test man's faith.

2- Solomon was controlling demons in your scriptures, right?

No, it is not in the Hebrew scriptures (the Tanakh, especially books of Kings and Chronicles), which detailed Solomon's life.

The 1st Book of Kings 1, never say he controlled demons, directly or indirectly. As Rakhel said, it is only found in Jewish folklore and fable, which is not part of the Tanakh, like the Haggada. The only scriptures that may mention such deeds. In facts, the Hebrew scriptures have no demons, whatsoever.

Nor do the scripture mention anything about Solomon speaking to animals or controlling the weather pattern, like the winds, which are all found in the Haggada, and later in the Qur'an, but not in the Tanakh.

Have you read the Haggada, TashaN?

There is a 1909 translation of the Haggada, by Louis Ginzberg, called The Legends of the Jews. As I said earlier, the Haggada is a folklore literature. These folk legends, weren't written until after the Talmud and Mishnah (after 200 CE). Exaggerations and distortions were involved in retelling the biblical stories. The Haggada weren't taken seriously by the Jews, but the Haggada was popular by the time of Muhammad. If you are looking for the sources of the fables of Solomon, then you will find it in the Haggada, not in the Tanakh.

 

[neves]

The spiritual beings known as djinns or jinns figured largely in the Qur'an; even more so than the hadiths. There are no jinns in the bible.

It would seem that the jinns existed before the Qur'an, when Arabs believed in polytheistic systems, hence the jinns are spirits of pre-Islamic folklore.

Why did Muhammad believed in something that started before he founded his religion? Was he superstitious?

Are Djinn so illogical? I think it not a superstitious idea... on the contrary I think it is quiet logical to think they exist...

[youtube]L2oYS9-Ee9U[/youtube]
YouTube - Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking: Aliens pt 1/5 (Discovery Channel Documentary April 2010)

watch it til about 4 mins...

 

[gnostic]

As interesting as the Stephen Hawking documentary is, none of the video indicate anything about god, angels, demons or djinn.

What was the purpose of posting the video, neves?

Hawking threw a lot of ideas around how life could have started, and the possibility that life may have originated from the asteroids that came to our planets, but it doesn't in any way validate the existence of djinn, let alone an all-powerful god.

Actually, if anything, Hawking lack of reference to divine or spiritual entities are quite telling in its silence - that divine intervention from a god is not god in order to believe that life started on its own on earth. No god to create life, and no Islamic or pre-Islamic Qur'anic fable nonsenses about a host of shape-shifting beings that are made out of smoke or fire.

Have you even bothered to watch the rest of the video, neves?

 

[neves]

As interesting as the Stephen Hawking documentary is, none of the video indicate anything about god, angels, demons or djinn.

What was the purpose of posting the video, neves?

Hawking threw a lot of ideas around how life could have started, and the possibility that life may have originated from the asteroids that came to our planets, but it doesn't in any way validate the existence of djinn, let alone an all-powerful god.

Actually, if anything, Hawking lack of reference to divine or spiritual entities are quite telling in its silence - that divine intervention from a god is not god in order to believe that life started on its own on earth. No god to create life, and no Islamic or pre-Islamic Qur'anic fable nonsenses about a host of shape-shifting beings that are made out of smoke or fire.

Have you even bothered to watch the rest of the video, neves?

What makes you think Djinn are spiritual beings? They are just another form of life according to the Quran... They are outside of our natural senses to perceive them...

The whole point of the video is to show you that to think the existence of other life forms is true, is not a superstitious idea...

 

[LuisDantas]

Neves, the idea of lifeforms that are indetectable certainly looks weird to some, including me. Particularly as an article of faith with religious significance.

There’s a dragon in my garage! « The Skeptical Teacher

IMO, Djinn are one more example of many spirit-like beliefs across the globe. Neither of them are really convincing. Nearly all are clearly projections of the hopes and fears of their believers, and an answer to a very human need to have answers if at all possible.

 

[gnostic]

What makes you think Djinn are spiritual beings? They are just another form of life according to the Quran... They are outside of our natural senses to perceive them...

Are you contradicting yourself?

You are saying they are life forms, and yet we can't perceive them with our normal senses. Is that like a "spirit"?

(LuisDantas beat me to it.)

 

[neves]

Are you contradicting yourself?

You are saying they are life forms, and yet we can't perceive them with our normal senses. Is that like a "spirit"?

(LuisDantas beat me to it.)

okay I did contradict myself, if they are outside out ability to perceive them then they are technically "spirits"... but my point is the same,

the existence of other life forms is not a superstitious idea...

 

[neves]

Neves, the idea of lifeforms that are indetectable certainly looks weird to some, including me. Particularly as an article of faith with religious significance.

There’s a dragon in my garage! « The Skeptical Teacher

IMO, Djinn are one more example of many spirit-like beliefs across the globe. Neither of them are really convincing. Nearly all are clearly projections of the hopes and fears of their believers, and an answer to a very human need to have answers if at all possible.

thanks for the statement... so what is you stance on other life forms?