About Judaism and the Messiah question

[Ehav4Ever]

Oh, whomever could that be?

Yes, whoever that could be.....

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@Ehav4Ever
Can you spell out the difference between Torath Moshes and Orthodox Judaism?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

@Ehav4Ever
Can you spell out the difference between Torath Moshes and Orthodox Judaism?

Sure: See the below information.

Essentially, Orthodox Judaism is a type of Torath Mosheh that developed from Torath Mosheh Jews in Europe. It is not clear, historically, if Torath Mosheh Jews in Europe chose the title "Orthodox" for themselves or if it was something that was applied to them as a put down by non-Torath Mosheh Jews during the Reform movement's start up in Europe. Some sources state the those who were being labeled as "Orthodox" prefferred the term "Torah-true" (gesetztreu), and often declared they used it (Orthodox) only for the sake of convenience. The German Orthodox leader Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch referred to "the conviction commonly designated as Orthodox Judaism"

In the Middle East, Africa, and Asia there was never any movements like the Reform and Conservative. Most differences between groups were either regional or differences about local custom/or the source of non-halakhic information. (Such as the Zohar dispute in Yemen.)

All Torath Mosheh Jews agree on what are halakhic requirements that came from Hashem, Mosheh ben-Amram, and the Mosaic Courts. The difference between any Torath Mosheh community modernly is going to normally be the local customs and cultural nuances that developed as a part of their exile experience. Sometimes the politics of the day is not accepting the local practice of another person's community. Thus, a valid Mosaic court in the Jerusalem would resolve these issues for Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews.

In short detail, an example, most Torath Mosheh Jews from the Middle East, Africa, and Asia use the Beith Yosef section of Shulchan Aruch and(or) Mishnah Torah whereas certain Orthodox Jewish communities may use Shulchan Aruch (stress on the Rema), Rosh, Qitzur Shulchan Aruch, Mishnah Berua, etc.

It is because of the above that Torath Mosheh Jews have no problem being a part of or praying in communities their families did not come from. So Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ethiopian Jews, etc. would have no problem praying in an Orthodox/Hasidic/etc. Ashkenazi synagogue and vice versa but never in a non-Orthodox Ashkenazi synagogue.

I hope that I wrote that clear enough.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

@Ehav4Ever
Can you spell out the difference between Torath Moshes and Orthodox Judaism?

Here is a useful example.

Kitniyot on Pesahh. Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews don't eat Kitniyot on Pesah - for them it is forbidden. Torath Mosheh Jews from the Middle East, Africa, Southern Europe (Sephardic) and Asia do eat kitniyot on Pesah - it is permitted.

Why the difference? Is it difference in halakha? No and no. Hametz on Pesah is forbidden to all Torath Mosheh Jews no matter where in the world they come from, post exile. The reason is historical and regional.

In many parts of Europe there was a problem with receiving kitniyot that was certain to not have hametz mixed in with it so a ruling was made, there among Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, to not eat kitniyot during Pesah. In the Middle East, Africa, and Asia this was not an issue since Jews in those regions handled the kitniyot themselves and would check all kitniyot they wanted to for Pesah, before Pesah. Here in Israel, for example, there are markings that let people know that a particular product has been checked. Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews who live here and don't kitniyot don't eat it, even when checked, because the ruling that was made years ago in Europe has become a regular practice. (This is a simplified answer.)

Now here is an important note. IF a Sephardic, Mizrahi, Yemenite, etc. Jew come across some kitniyot during Pesah that has not been checked before hand for Hametz we don't eat it. The reason is because the same circumstance that caused Orthodox Ashkenazi jewish leaders in Europe to rule to not eat kitniyot is prsent. Thus, same halakha but different responses to a modern situation.

When there is a Mosaic court in Jerusalem Askenazim will no longer have a reason to carry on the ruling from Europe and in this area all Torath Mosheh Jews will have the same practice.

 

[YoursTrue]

The kid isn't Jewish according to orthodox Judaism and it's understanding of that higher power.

Well, the synagogue and his family thinks he's "Jewish." And because it's brought up about the decision made by men about these things - it's almost like you answered the question. Thanks.

 

[YoursTrue]

Here is a useful example.

Kitniyot on Pesahh. Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews don't eat Kitniyot on Pesah - for them it is forbidden. Torath Mosheh Jews from the Middle East, Africa, Southern Europe (Sephardic) and Asia do eat kitniyot on Pesah - it is permitted.

Why the difference? Is it difference in halakha? No and no. Hametz on Pesah is forbidden to all Torath Mosheh Jews no matter where in the world they come from, post exile. The reason is historical and regional.

In many parts of Europe there was a problem with receiving kitniyot that was certain to not have hametz mixed in with it so a ruling was made, there among Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, to not eat kitniyot during Pesah. In the Middle East, Africa, and Asia this was not an issue since Jews in those regions handled the kitniyot themselves and would check all kitniyot they wanted to for Pesah, before Pesah. Here in Israel, for example, there are markings that let people know that a particular product has been checked. Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews who live here and don't kitniyot don't eat it, even when checked, because the ruling that was made years ago in Europe has become a regular practice. (This is a simplified answer.)

Now here is an important note. IF a Sephardic, Mizrahi, Yemenite, etc. Jew come across some kitniyot during Pesah that has not been checked before hand for Hametz we don't eat it. The reason is because the same circumstance that caused Orthodox Ashkenazi jewish leaders in Europe to rule to not eat kitniyot is prsent. Thus, same halakha but different responses to a modern situation.

When there is a Mosaic court in Jerusalem Askenazim will no longer have a reason to carry on the ruling from Europe and in this area all Torath Mosheh Jews will have the same practice.

Many people (Jews) don't care. They don't know. So then what? For instance, I know family members who couldn't give much of a hoot about any of those things. They say they are Jewish. They had a seder and went through the Hagaddah. They did not keep kosher. Some of them went to synagogue, others did not. Their children were circumcized with the official person coming to the home with a little bit of a ceremony. So again - it really makes clear certain things.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Many people (Jews) don't care. They don't know. So then what? For instance, I know family members who couldn't give much of a hoot about any of those things. They say they are Jewish. They had a seder and went through the Hagaddah. They did not keep kosher. Some of them went to synagogue, others did not. Their children were circumcized with the official person coming to the home with a little bit of a ceremony. So again - it really makes clear certain things.

If you look through the Hebrew Tanakh you will see situations where in various generations there were Jews who didn't care about Hashem, didn't care about Torah, and in some cases didn't care about themselves. A good example to your point is what happened after Eliyahu Hatishbi (Elijah) confronted the king of northern Israel Ahhav. Ahhav had married a women who wasn't Jewish and he along with her introduced all kinds of reforms against the Torah.

After the confrontation Eliyahu Hatishbi told Hashem that he was all alone and that everyone, in the North, was not keeping the Torah. What Hashem told him was amazing. Hashem told him that there were 7,000 Israelis who were keeping Torath Mosheh correctly and had not fallen into Avodah Zara. Further, Eliyahu Hatishbi didn't know that Ovadyah had saved about 100 Nevi'im (Prophets) from Ahhav's wife by hiding the prophets in caves.

What this means that even if there were a situation where a large number of Jewish communities don't care Hashem has already provided the ability for there to be a sizable group of Jews who do care.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Many people (Jews) don't care. They don't know. So then what? For instance, I know family members who couldn't give much of a hoot about any of those things. They say they are Jewish. They had a seder and went through the Hagaddah. They did not keep kosher. Some of them went to synagogue, others did not. Their children were circumcized with the official person coming to the home with a little bit of a ceremony. So again - it really makes clear certain things.

The following video shows how Torath Mosheh handle the above.

 

[rosends]

Well, the synagogue and his family thinks he's "Jewish." And because it's brought up about the decision made by men about these things - it's almost like you answered the question. Thanks.

Then you have made a choice and have already decided that any answer given via an orthodox lens won't connect with you. OK.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

 

[YoursTrue]

If you look through the Hebrew Tanakh you will see situations where in various generations there were Jews who didn't care about Hashem, didn't care about Torah, and in some cases didn't care about themselves. A good example to your point is what happened after Eliyahu Hatishbi (Elijah) confronted the king of northern Israel Ahhav. Ahhav had married a women who wasn't Jewish and he along with her introduced all kinds of reforms against the Torah.

After the confrontation Eliyahu Hatishbi told Hashem that he was all alone and that everyone, in the North, was not keeping the Torah. What Hashem told him was amazing. Hashem told him that there were 7,000 Israelis who were keeping Torath Mosheh correctly and had not fallen into Avodah Zara. Further, Eliyahu Hatishbi didn't know that Ovadyah had saved about 100 Nevi'im (Prophets) from Ahhav's wife by hiding the prophets in caves.

What this means that even if there were a situation where a large number of Jewish communities don't care Hashem has already provided the ability for there to be a sizable group of Jews who do care.

View attachment 57868

He (God) did provide prophets, and yes, there were always some Jews who served Him. Joshua, for instance, we know he said that the majority spoke against themselves because they were in a covenant relationship with God and of course, you know many did not keep the Law or care about worshipping God as He saw fit. Which is why, of course, He brought prophets to speak for Him.
I was thinking there are Jews today and otherwise who are "halachically" Jews but live not-so-good lives. By that I mean they might have been famous, clever, but--not caring much about what God Almighty considers righteous. I was watching a program on Jewish tv that extolled certain famous Jews, many of which either didn't really believe in God or clearly were not living in harmony with the law of Moses. (adultery and homosexuality in particular) So such can be practicing homosexuals, and adulterers, and more so. Which prompts me to raise a question in my mind about what the Messiah you believe will eventually come forth will do about this. Or is doing about it now...I'm talking about those who are genetically considered by virtue of birth Jews.

 

[YoursTrue]

Then you have made a choice and have already decided that any answer given via an orthodox lens won't connect with you. OK.

Not necessarily. But how does it connect with YOU? And what do your rabbis (teachers) say will happen to those who are not following the rules that you say are by halacha? (Not sure of right term there, please forgive.)
Along with that, what does the board of rabbis (however you call yours which make the decisions), I assume, different from conservative or reform) say will happen to those who are lesbians, homosexuals, adulterers, things like that? How do they rule? Good? Acceptable? Future prospects, ??

 

[YoursTrue]

Then you have made a choice and have already decided that any answer given via an orthodox lens won't connect with you. OK.

The point is also why do the reform and conservative Jewish population not go along with it? Question(s)-- what will happen to these if they're not 'accepted' by the orthodox rules? Is there a penalty or are they just kind of rules, maybe yes by God, maybe no in terms of any outcome by God for these people? I thank you for looking at my questions, your answers are actually helpful.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

He (God) did provide prophets, and yes, there were always some Jews who served Him. Joshua, for instance, we know he said that the majority spoke against themselves because they were in a covenant relationship with God and of course, you know many did not keep the Law or care about worshipping God as He saw fit. Which is why, of course, He brought prophets to speak for Him.
I was thinking there are Jews today and otherwise who are "halachically" Jews but live not-so-good lives. By that I mean they might have been famous, clever, but--not caring much about what God Almighty considers righteous. I was watching a program on Jewish tv that extolled certain famous Jews, many of which either didn't really believe in God or clearly were not living in harmony with the law of Moses. (adultery and homosexuality in particular) So such can be practicing homosexuals, and adulterers, and more so. Which prompts me to raise a question in my mind about what the Messiah you believe will eventually come forth will do about this. Or is doing about it now...I'm talking about those who are genetically considered by virtue of birth Jews.

The following threads answers all of your questions and concerns.

Davidic King/Mashiahh according to Torath Mosheh Sources

Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced

Concerning, whether or not Torath Mosheh and Orthodox are doing the will of Hashem, love Hashem, knows who is a Jew, etc. I have started a thread to address your "concerns" there.

Do Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews know who is a Jew, according to Hebrew Tanakh?

 

[rosends]

Not necessarily. But how does it connect with YOU? And what do your rabbis (teachers) say will happen to those who are not following the rules that you say are by halacha? (Not sure of right term there, please forgive.)

Thos who do not adhere to halacha will have to be re-educated after death. That applies to non-religious Jews and religious Jews who don't get everything right.

Along with that, what does the board of rabbis (however you call yours which make the decisions), I assume, different from conservative or reform) say will happen to those who are lesbians, homosexuals, adulterers, things like that? How do they rule? Good? Acceptable? Future prospects, ??

Those who lives do not abide by halacha, regardless of the particular area in which the person deviates from the accepted norm, will have to be re-educated. How is that different from others? You would have to ask them.

 

[rosends]

The point is also why do the reform and conservative Jewish population not go along with it? Question(s)-- what will happen to these if they're not 'accepted' by the orthodox rules? Is there a penalty or are they just kind of rules, maybe yes by God, maybe no in terms of any outcome by God for these people? I thank you for looking at my questions, your answers are actually helpful.

Why do others understand things differently? That's a question for them. Are there different "penalties" for someone who thinks he is right (or has a rational explanation for his position's being right)? I don't worry about that -- it isn't foe me to judge, nor rule.

 

[YoursTrue]

If you look through the Hebrew Tanakh you will see situations where in various generations there were Jews who didn't care about Hashem, didn't care about Torah, and in some cases didn't care about themselves. A good example to your point is what happened after Eliyahu Hatishbi (Elijah) confronted the king of northern Israel Ahhav. Ahhav had married a women who wasn't Jewish and he along with her introduced all kinds of reforms against the Torah.

After the confrontation Eliyahu Hatishbi told Hashem that he was all alone and that everyone, in the North, was not keeping the Torah. What Hashem told him was amazing. Hashem told him that there were 7,000 Israelis who were keeping Torath Mosheh correctly and had not fallen into Avodah Zara. Further, Eliyahu Hatishbi didn't know that Ovadyah had saved about 100 Nevi'im (Prophets) from Ahhav's wife by hiding the prophets in caves.

What this means that even if there were a situation where a large number of Jewish communities don't care Hashem has already provided the ability for there to be a sizable group of Jews who do care.

View attachment 57868

Whereas the Almighty took action against Israel's enemies, He also took action against those Jews who offered worship not approved by the Almighty, didn't He? At least in the times before the desecration of the temple by the Romans in the 1st century CE.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thos who do not adhere to halacha will have to be re-educated after death. That applies to non-religious Jews and religious Jews who don't get everything right.

Those who lives do not abide by halacha, regardless of the particular area in which the person deviates from the accepted norm, will have to be re-educated. How is that different from others? You would have to ask them.

Re-educated? Do you mean after the resurrection?

 

[YoursTrue]

Why do others understand things differently? That's a question for them. Are there different "penalties" for someone who thinks he is right (or has a rational explanation for his position's being right)? I don't worry about that -- it isn't foe me to judge, nor rule.

Actually I'm asking you since you should know what your religious authorities are telling you, shouldn't you? You say you don't worry about what? If a person has a "rational explanation" that doesn't agree with the authorities you ostensibly go along with? If it's not for you to judge, what do you think you could be judging about? You can't figure what your religious authorities say will happen to those who are lesbians, homosexuals, adulterers, murderers, thieves and more that are disobeying God's laws? I'm kind of smiling here -- you just have no idea, leave that to others. And offer no reasonable, rational explanation. Thanks again.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thos who do not adhere to halacha will have to be re-educated after death. That applies to non-religious Jews and religious Jews who don't get everything right.

Those who lives do not abide by halacha, regardless of the particular area in which the person deviates from the accepted norm, will have to be re-educated. How is that different from others? You would have to ask them.

OK, then -- what do your particular authorities say about those who practice homosexuality, or are fornicators and adulterers? (Do you know?)