About Judaism and the Messiah question

[Sedim Haba]

That wasn't an attack, simply a question. And even assuming that the time tag the system applies reflected the location of the poster, not every jew is sabbath observant, and that isn't a source of shame. I notice you didn't answer the question and instead shifted focus onto something irrelevant.

I call bovine fecal matter on that.

Here's an example of 'simply a question' : "are you a Jew?"
When someone prefixes it with "Just curious if..." disbelief is implied, attack is normal assumption.
Especially an attack when someone EDITS THE TEXT as a 'quote' to take something out of context
specifically to make it look bad.

Now, I don't judge anyone normally, but when they bring Halacha into it "...halakhically a Jew"
while not being Shomer Shabbat (part of Halacha, right?) that's called hypocrisy.

A question can definitely be a form of attack

'Are you a child molester?'
'Are you a rapist?'
'Are you a terrorist?'

the list is long, but you get the point. 'Who is a Jew' has a very specific history for attacks.

Finally let me answer the question, even though no one has the right to demand halachic 'proof'.
Yes, I am a Jew, and I consider Karaites as Jews and I now label myself such; as well as Israel.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

My question with all of this going on, how can the Jews be united when they can't even agree as to who is a Jew in realtime, meaning halachically.

The answer to that is easy. Halakha already answered this question thousands of years ago. It is actually even in the Hebrew Tanakh.

1. Anyone who doesn't want to be included in what Hashem gave, what Hashem does, and what Hashem will do may be biologically descended from Jews but they have factored themselves out of the Jewish Nation's equation.
2. Anyone who knows that Hashem gave the Torah at Mount Sinai yet chooses to mislead people about what Hashem gave at Mount Sinai has factored themselves out of the equation.
3. Anyone who knows that Hashem gave the Torah at Mount Sinai but chooses to not do it has factored themselves ouf of the equation.
4. Anyone who knows that Hashem gave the Torah at Mount Sinai but chooses to work against the interests of Hashem and the Jewish nation has factored themselves out of the equation.
5. Anyone who does Avodah Zara, tries to convince other Jews to do Avodah Zara, has factored themselves out of the equation.

So, to answer your question Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews know what the Torah requirements are about who is a part of the nation. We also have always had a method to address Jews who don't know that Hashem gave the Torah or how.

Lastly, if you remember what I wrote earlier as the first step. It all starts in the land of Israel when Jews are living in the land of Israel. It can't start any other way. This is key. If you ignore the below point you won't understand any person's answer of your question.

1. Jews living in Israel, as a whole, desire to return to the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai. (Torah - written and oral)
   • Similar to what the Torah states was happening among Israelis in Egypt before Hashem approached Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) to return and lead the way.
   • Some sources say that this may happen one of two ways. a) Jews living in Israel choose to return to ancient Jewish/Torah based practice/culture/text or b) Jews living in Israel find themselves with their backs completely against the wall w/o any other alternative and they desire to return to the Torah due to the inability to escape the situation by any other means.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yes, with all respect, I understand. (I don't agree with the conclusion or methodology, but I understand. Thanks.)

Of course there is no reason why you would agree.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

My question with all of this going on, how can the Jews be united when they can't even agree as to who is a Jew in realtime, meaning halachically.
Hi rosends.
I wonder how important it is -- some of my relatives are Jewish, went to synagogue, some were Sephardic, others Ashkenazic. Family tradition to celebrate Passover, etc. Sprinkled wine during the Passover meal - the whole Megillah, you know what I mean. They were not well education in Jewry, never heard of either Talmud, never discussed it, and don't know anything about it. Certainly not the "Oral Torah." So who's to say? When, what or where.

Here, you have answered your earlier question. Consider what you wrote above, which I highlighted in red. When referring to Jews, you wrote "the Jews", "they" and "some of my relatives are Jewish." I.e. you wrote as someone who sees themselves outside of the Jewish community and nation.

Thus, at a base level, even you know how to identify who is Jewish and who is not. Most people who are Jewish would at some point use the terms "we", "us", "I am" in regards to being Jewish. That is a good start, Torath Mosheh wise. If someone were at least able to start there it is possible to bring them to a certain level, or at least their children who also consider themselves Jews.

One woman said a while back right after R. Schneerson died, if he's not the Messiah, no one is. As has been said, 2 Jews, 3 opinions, is that right?

Actually, just so you know. No Torah based Jew would accept such as statement as truth. We go by what Hashem says, not some random un-named person. Such a person is not the determining factor on any matter in any culture around the world. Also, just so you know "2 Jews, 3 opinions" is a modern Western Jewish joke. It is not a rule of law and it is not halakhic in nature. That is why a Beith Din (Torah based court) is required to have three rabbis on it and not two. (Odd number of judges.) You could replace the word Jews with any given culture and get the same outcome with any group of people around the world.

When there was a Mosaic Court in place in Jerusalem the rule was, "Odd number of judges and we go by the majority." Based on Torah:

 

[IndigoChild5559]

so here is my next question: when did the Oral Torah stop being written?

Different Jews different answers. An Orthodox Jew thinks Halakhah is "complete" and unalterable. But a Reform Jew believes that the process is continuing even unto this day. Even Conservatism accepts that halakha has never been carved in stone (with the exception of the 10 , LOL) and that we reinterpret today as needed. Of course the key words there are "as needed." You don't just change Halakha willy nilly.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

An Orthodox Jew thinks Halakhah is "complete" and unalterable.

Actually, what you wrote above is not correct.

Orthodox Jews hold that any halakha that came from Hashem is unalterable IF Hashem stated that it is - IF Hashem gave permission that something could be altered then it can be.

Further, Orthodox Jews also hold that halakha is determined by a Mosaic Court in Jerusalem. In the absence of a Mosaic Court all Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews more than 1,000 years ago decided to use the rulings found in the Bavli Talmud UNTIL there is again a Mosaic Court. Lastly, Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews hold that when there is again a Mosaic Court in Jerusalem we go by their rulings on Halakha.

One source for what I wrote above is the Rambam's Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Mamrim chapters 1-3. Here is a part of it:

"The Supreme Sanhedrin in Jerusalem are the essence of the Oral Law. They are the pillars of instruction from whom statutes and judgments issue forth for the entire Jewish people. Concerning them, the Torah promises Deuteronomy 17:11: "You shall do according to the laws which they shall instruct you...." This is a positive commandment.

Whoever believes in Moses and in his Torah is obligated to make all of his religious acts dependent on this court and to rely on them.

Any person who does not carry out their directives transgresses a negative commandment, as Ibid. continues: "Do not deviate from any of the statements they relate to you, neither right nor left."

We are obligated to heed their words whether they:
a) learned them from the Oral Tradition, i.e., the Oral Law, (From Hashem)
b) derived them on the basis of their own knowledge through one of the attributes of Torah exegesis and it appeared to them that this is the correct interpretation of the matter,
c) instituted the matter as a safeguard for the Torah, as was necessary at a specific time. These are the decrees, edicts, and customs instituted by the Sages.

It is a positive commandment to heed the court with regard to each of these three matters. A person who transgresses any of these types of directives transgresses a negative commandment. This is derived from the continuation of the above verse in the following manner: "According to the laws which they shall instruct you" - this refers to the edicts, decrees, and customs which they instruct people at large to observe to strengthen the faith and perfect the world. "According to the judgment which they relate" - this refers to the matters which they derive through logical analysis employing one of the methods of Torah exegesis. "From all things that they will tell you" - This refers to the tradition which they received one person from another."​

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

How can anyone today, conclusively prove that they are a descendant of Judah, let alone of King David?

Shouldn’t be too hard given his sexual reputation.

 

[rosends]

My question with all of this going on, how can the Jews be united when they can't even agree as to who is a Jew in realtime, meaning halachically.

I can give you a halachic answer -- matrilineal descent or accepted conversion.

Hi rosends.
I wonder how important it is

It is essential. No question.

-- some of my relatives are Jewish, went to synagogue, some were Sephardic, others Ashkenazic. Family tradition to celebrate Passover, etc. Sprinkled wine during the Passover meal - the whole Megillah, you know what I mean. They were not well education in Jewry, never heard of either Talmud, never discussed it, and don't know anything about it.

Then none of those things that you say they did had any source? Where do they think they came from? They have no education.

Certainly not the "Oral Torah." So who's to say?

Jews who know that the laws you mentioned came from somewhere and didn't pop into existence last week.

When, what or where. One woman said a while back right after R. Schneerson died, if he's not the Messiah, no one is. As has been said, 2 Jews, 3 opinions, is that right?

I can't speak to what one woman said. Schneerson is not the messiah. The 2 Jews, 3 opinions can probably be traced back to Talmudic disputes in which a variety of positions are imputed, often more than one to each disputant.

 

[rosends]

YOU'LL let me know?
(lol)

We'll let you know.

 

[rosends]

I call bovine fecal matter on that.

Feel free. I'm just curious, are you always so quick to jump to conclusions?

Here's an example of 'simply a question' : "are you a Jew?"
When someone prefixes it with "Just curious if..." disbelief is implied, attack is normal assumption.

Maybe to someone looking to call things attacked. I have been asked that form of a question before and never thought it was an attack.

Now, I don't judge anyone normally, but when they bring Halacha into it "...halakhically a Jew"
while not being Shomer Shabbat (part of Halacha, right?) that's called hypocrisy.

No, it is called fact gathering. I can ask about someone's Russian citizenship as an American.

A question can definitely be a form of attack

'Are you a child molester?'
'Are you a rapist?'
'Are you a terrorist?'

Can is about possibility, not certainty. You seem to treat it as certainty.

Yes, I am a Jew, and I consider Karaites as Jews and I now label myself such; as well as Israel.

Do you consider yourself a Jew when considering the standards of Jewish law, or some other standard? If some other, can you share that standard?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Actually, what you wrote above is not correct.

Orthodox Jews hold that any halakha that came from Hashem is unalterable IF Hashem stated that it is - IF Hashem gave permission that something could be altered then it can be.

Further, Orthodox Jews also hold that halakha is determined by a Mosaic Court in Jerusalem. In the absence of a Mosaic Court all Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews more than 1,000 years ago decided to use the rulings found in the Bavli Talmud UNTIL there is again a Mosaic Court. Lastly, Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews hold that when there is again a Mosaic Court in Jerusalem we go by their rulings on Halakha.

One source for what I wrote above is the Rambam's Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Mamrim chapters 1-3. Here is a part of it:

"The Supreme Sanhedrin in Jerusalem are the essence of the Oral Law. They are the pillars of instruction from whom statutes and judgments issue forth for the entire Jewish people. Concerning them, the Torah promises Deuteronomy 17:11: "You shall do according to the laws which they shall instruct you...." This is a positive commandment.

Whoever believes in Moses and in his Torah is obligated to make all of his religious acts dependent on this court and to rely on them.

Any person who does not carry out their directives transgresses a negative commandment, as Ibid. continues: "Do not deviate from any of the statements they relate to you, neither right nor left."

We are obligated to heed their words whether they:
a) learned them from the Oral Tradition, i.e., the Oral Law, (From Hashem)
b) derived them on the basis of their own knowledge through one of the attributes of Torah exegesis and it appeared to them that this is the correct interpretation of the matter,
c) instituted the matter as a safeguard for the Torah, as was necessary at a specific time. These are the decrees, edicts, and customs instituted by the Sages.

It is a positive commandment to heed the court with regard to each of these three matters. A person who transgresses any of these types of directives transgresses a negative commandment. This is derived from the continuation of the above verse in the following manner: "According to the laws which they shall instruct you" - this refers to the edicts, decrees, and customs which they instruct people at large to observe to strengthen the faith and perfect the world. "According to the judgment which they relate" - this refers to the matters which they derive through logical analysis employing one of the methods of Torah exegesis. "From all things that they will tell you" - This refers to the tradition which they received one person from another."​

So then an Orthodox Jew would say that it is possible that in the future, the Rabbis will make new halakha that says a woman can divorce her husband?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So then an Orthodox Jew would say that it is possible that in the future, the Rabbis will make new halakha that says a woman can divorce her husband?

Actually, it is because there is no Sanhedrin that certain women who want divorces in "certain communities" may not easily get it or not get it at all. The other reason that some "some women" in "some communities" can't get it is because their families are not involved enough in protecting her rights. I.e. scrutinize the would be Hatan, make a legal agreement on what Beith Din handles a potential divorce, make a legal agreement on the divorve proceedings with the kethuba, and for heavens sake require the Mishnah Torah be used.

Historically speaking, the issues rests on the "modern" reliance of particular Ashkenazi humrot and minhagim while ignoring the more ancient Middle Eastern and North African sources that made it easier. For example, there are records from some of the Jewish communities in parts of Egypt where if a women stood up in the community and announced she wanted a divorve it was given to her. In Yemen there are also records of women getting divorces when they approached the Beith Din.

So, in short. There is no need for "new" halakhot. The halakhot were already there. The problem modernly is that if a woman does not a) pick her husband wisely (a man with particular Torah based middot), b) pick the Beith Din wisely (proven middot), c) get her family involved from the start, and d) use sources like the Mishnah Torah she may be stuck in a situation where she has been led to beleive that she can't get a divorce.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Actually, it is because there is no Sanhedrin that certain women who want divorces in "certain communities" may not easily get it or not get it at all. The other reason that some "some women" in "some communities" can't get it is because their families are not involved enough in protecting her rights. I.e. scrutinize the would be Hatan, make a legal agreement on what Beith Din handles a potential divorce, make a legal agreement on the divorve proceedings with the kethuba, and for heavens sake require the Mishnah Torah be used.

Historically speaking, the issues rests on the "modern" reliance of particular Ashkenazi humrot and minhagim while ignoring the more ancient Middle Eastern and North African sources that made it easier. For example, there are records from some of the Jewish communities in parts of Egypt where if a women stood up in the community and announced she wanted a divorve it was given to her. In Yemen there are also records of women getting divorces when they approached the Beith Din.

So, in short. There is no need for "new" halakhot. The halakhot were already there. The problem modernly is that if a woman does not a) pick her husband wisely (a man with particular Torah based middot), b) pick the Beith Din wisely (proven middot), c) get her family involved from the start, and d) use sources like the Mishnah Torah she may be stuck in a situation where she has been led to beleive that she can't get a divorce.

The halakha that a makes it so that a woman ends up chained is unjust at its core. It violates loving your neighbor as yourself. It is something that needs to change. But Orthodox Jews won't even consider it, because, for you, Halakhah is engraved in stone.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The halakha that a makes it so that a woman ends up chained is unjust at its core. It violates loving your neighbor as yourself. It is something that needs to change. But Orthodox Jews won't even consider it, because, for you, Halakhah is engraved in stone.

Not true at all. The halakha, if you really know what is the halakha, is not unjust. "People" have the potential to be unjust and can be unjust. I.e. when people ignore what is really halakha and choose to not institute what is really the halakha then people are choosing to be unjust.

"For me and other Torath Mosheh Jews like me" only halakha that comes directly from Hashem is set in stone. In my community, and others like it, a woman can get a divorce.

YET, if she chooses to marry a man who has no Torah based middot, i.e. the imitation of Hashem, and if she chooses to marry a man w/o putting protections in place with her family and a Beith Din before the marriage, and if she has not taken the steps (before the marriage) to know what the halakha says about marriage and divorce, AND IF everyone involved chooses to ignore what the Rambam wrote in the Mishnah Torah about this and other topics then yes the woman in said situation can be taken advantage of just like any other woman (even in the secular world) who can be the victim of abuse. i.e. abusers don't need any form of halakha to keep a women in chains, in fear, etc. if that is their desire. They can use any legal system that exists, if that is their goal, to be abusive.

You will notice that I wrote all of that w/o making statements like "for you" or stating anything what the Reform and Conservative do or don't do on any given matter. In my community women have been getting divorces when they requested them for thousands of years.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Maybe to someone looking to call things attacked. I have been asked that form of a question before and never thought it was an attack.

Maybe that's because you have not seen 'Who is a Jew' weaponized OVER AND OVER Again.
I attended a Messianic synagogue for years, in addition to a regular Synagogue. Mostly for
social reasons. "Who is a Jew' was a common attack even against observant Jewish born members.

Oh, BTW I see you excluded my point about an edited quote, in yet again an edited quote. The Irony.

Do you consider yourself a Jew when considering the standards of Jewish law, or some other standard? If some other, can you share that standard?

So, you bring up my own Jewishness YET AGAIN after I CLEARLY stated I'm Jewish. Wow.
This is also a subtle 'Who is a Jew' attack. No, I'm not going to play this game with you.

 

[YoursTrue]

We'll let you know.

So far there are many sects within Judaism. With different beliefs. You don't need to let me know anyway. It's ok.

 

[YoursTrue]

I can give you a halachic answer -- matrilineal descent or accepted conversion.

It is essential. No question.

Then none of those things that you say they did had any source? Where do they think they came from? They have no education.

Jews who know that the laws you mentioned came from somewhere and didn't pop into existence last week.

I can't speak to what one woman said. Schneerson is not the messiah. The 2 Jews, 3 opinions can probably be traced back to Talmudic disputes in which a variety of positions are imputed, often more than one to each disputant.

So everyone claiming to be a Jew has to be tested for genetics, or prove conversion?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So everyone claiming to be a Jew has to be tested for genetics, or prove conversion?

Actually, genetics are invalid in a Torah based court. Only in situations that legally requirement it, is knowing someone's background necessary such as being a witness in a legal case, marriage, certain job functions in the Torah based community, becoming a leader in a Jewish community, getting certain honors in a community, etc. Other than that the information has no real bearing.

YET, the question comes up in spaces like this "sometimes" if a person is trying to understand a claim that is being that may seem "strange or foreign" to the person asking yet is being presented as being Jewish. Since I live in Israel it is not a question I feel I need to ask, especially in a space like this, I find that people will normally give enough information for me to know. Even without that I try my best to not assume to much about people and prefer to let them describe themselves.

Lastly, recently there have a number "misionary style" Christians and Messianics who have been caught hiding out in various Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish communities. That has put some of the Jewish on alert.

'Fake' Orthodox father-son rabbis 'outed' as Christians

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not true at all. The halakha, if you really know what is the halakha, is not unjust. "People" have the potential to be unjust and can be unjust. I.e. when people ignore what is really halakha and choose to not institute what is really the halakha then people are choosing to be unjust.

"For me and other Torath Mosheh Jews like me" only halakha that comes directly from Hashem is set in stone. In my community, and others like it, a woman can get a divorce.

YET, if she chooses to marry a man who has no Torah based middot, i.e. the imitation of Hashem, and if she chooses to marry a man w/o putting protections in place with her family and a Beith Din before the marriage, and if she has not taken the steps (before the marriage) to know what the halakha says about marriage and divorce, AND IF everyone involved chooses to ignore what the Rambam wrote in the Mishnah Torah about this and other topics then yes the woman in said situation can be taken advantage of just like any other woman (even in the secular world) who can be the victim of abuse. i.e. abusers don't need any form of halakha to keep a women in chains, in fear, etc. if that is their desire. They can use any legal system that exists, if that is their goal, to be abusive.

You will notice that I wrote all of that w/o making statements like "for you" or stating anything what the Reform and Conservative do or don't do on any given matter. In my community women have been getting divorces when they requested them for thousands of years.

All I can say is that if you insist that its okay for a woman to be chained to her husband, you are part of the very problem I used as my example.

 

[rosends]

Maybe that's because you have not seen 'Who is a Jew' weaponized OVER AND OVER Again.

I have seen many things weaponized, but that doesn't mean I see them as weapons every time they exist. The question of "are you a Jew" is a fairly common and innocent question. I get asked it all the time.

I attended a Messianic synagogue for years, in addition to a regular Synagogue. Mostly for
social reasons. "Who is a Jew' was a common attack even against observant Jewish born members.

One wonders if they saw it as an attack or if that's just your projection.

Oh, BTW I see you excluded my point about an edited quote, in yet again an edited quote. The Irony.

First, that's not irony. I could give you a master class on irony if you would like or you can take my word for it, it isn't irony.
Second, I didn't comment about a point about which I know nothing. That's called "discretion."

So, you bring up my own Jewishness YET AGAIN after I CLEARLY stated I'm Jewish. Wow.
This is also a subtle 'Who is a Jew' attack. No, I'm not going to play this game with you.

I only discuss what you mentioned. You seem to like to play the victim. That's your game not mine.