About Judaism and the Messiah question

[YoursTrue]

I honestly don't know. The Rebbe died before I became active in the Chabad community ( I had just graduated from High School, not interested in religion ).

Unified as a nation, The Jewish Messiah will gather the Jewish people into one nation observing Torah law.

What about the sacrifices? (The animal ones...)

 

[dybmh]

What about the sacrifices? (The animal ones...)

It's a great question. I would expect the sacrifices to resume; but I know that many Jews disagree with that. It's a great issue for Moshiach to address and resolve.

 

[YoursTrue]

It's a great question. I would expect the sacrifices to resume; but I know that many Jews disagree with that. It's a great issue for Moshiach to address and resolve.

That will be interesting. Not that I agree with your viewpoint, but the idea you propose is interesting. So let's just say that the animal sacrifices do continue when the third temple is built. Which I also do not think there will be a physical third temple, but let's figure it out about the sacrifices and Moshiach. First, though, they'd have to build the temple, right? And yet one orthodox Jew told me that temple would come down from heaven. Interesting, isn't it? So will it come down from heaven?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They can't all be right, can they? Besides, how will they all get together then to accept the messiah?

Correct. And indeed they may all be wrong. That's not the point. The point is that Jews don't have some kind of monolithic opinion on this matter.

 

[dybmh]

That will be interesting. Not that I agree with your viewpoint, but the idea you propose is interesting. So let's just say that the animal sacrifices do continue when the third temple is built. Which I also do not think there will be a physical third temple, but let's figure it out about the sacrifices and Moshiach. First, though, they'd have to build the temple, right? And yet one orthodox Jew told me that temple would come down from heaven. Interesting, isn't it? So will it come down from heaven?

I've heard that interpretation, that the 3rd Temple would be miraculous. I'm of the opinion that both will happen, a physical temple will be built here on earth, and as a result, a corresponding heavenly temple will also be constructed.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

, is the oral Torah written down somewhere?

Yes. Now it is. BUT even in the written form it was written in a type of code(s). I.e. Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews when studying Mishnah and Talmud are essentially studying Oral Torah and the code that was used to put into written form.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Yeah, I saw that. I didn't see in your intro though which version of Matthew you consider to be authentic and auhoratative.

We both know that barring some archeological discovery like the Qumran scrolls,
maybe from an Ebionite genizah, we won't find any source material, right?
Even then, it would not be a 'Gospel of Matthew' in any sense. It would be a
collection of sayings, quotes, and teachings more in the format of
Pirkei Avot. That's probably what the author of Matthew had and combined it
with something like Mark to get a 'gospel'. But really, what we have now is
good enough for me. To me it's just an inspirational Writing, like Psalms
or Proverbs. Personally I don't think the actual quotes have been tampered
with that much. Look at Matthew 7:21-23 the 'I never knew you' passages.
That with Matthew 5:17-20 'Until heaven & earth disappear' passages makes
Xian denial of the Torah completely contrary to what Yeshua actually taught, eh?
(You'd think they'd edit that all completely out right away.)

 

[Sedim Haba]

Just curious if you are halakhically a Jew.

Oh, goody, a 'Who is a Jew' attack, my favorite!

Let's see what else you say...

IndigoChild5559, Friday at 9:34 PM

Let's see, ... time zones... definitely posted on Shabbat.
How embarrassing for you, maybe I should post the same question about you...
but that would be lashon hara wouldn't it?
Oh my, again... how embarrassing for you! So sad.
I'll help you not do this anymore because of me,
I'll put you on my 'ignore list' and ask you do likewise.
(really thought an idolator would be first on that list but oh well.)

 

[YoursTrue]

I've heard that interpretation, that the 3rd Temple would be miraculous. I'm of the opinion that both will happen, a physical temple will be built here on earth, and as a result, a corresponding heavenly temple will also be constructed.

It's interesting--perhaps you are aware that the book of Revelation speaks of the temple coming out of heaven, and of course, Ezekiel did also speak of a visionary temple. So I was surprised to hear an orthodox Jew tell me about the third temple coming down from heaven.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

We both know that barring some archeological discovery like the Qumran scrolls,
maybe from an Ebionite genizah, we won't find any source material, right?

Well, that is just it. I have actually come across people who beleive in yeshua, in a similar way to what you described, who claim that they have done just that OR they claim to have reconstructed it. There is a guy here in Israel who claims to have reconstructed the original "matthew" what ever that means. I don't know if you have ever heard of him. This is him below.

I also once knew a guy here in Israel who was claiming that he was trying to restart/recreate/etc. the Nazerene/Ebionite movement. Unfortunately, he had a lot of problems trying to make a life here in Israel work and he sadly set himself on fire in the old city of Jerusalem, in front of the building where he was supposed to be learning Hebrew.

That is why I ask. Not trying to be invasive but I have heard a number of claiments to the Ebionite and Nazerene mantle who all say completely different things. So, each time I hear it, or something similar, I try to understand such a group/person on their own terms and not transfer what I have seen others say and do; and w/o assuming to know what they are about.

Even then, it would not be a 'Gospel of Matthew' in any sense. It would be a
collection of sayings, quotes, and teachings more in the format of
Pirkei Avot. That's probably what the author of Matthew had and combined it
with something like Mark to get a 'gospel'.

So, the guy I mentioned before. This is what he is claiming to have done.

But really, what we have now is good enough for me. To me it's just an inspirational Writing, like Psalms or Proverbs. Personally I don't think the actual quotes have been tampered with that much. Look at Matthew 7:21-23 the 'I never knew you' passages.

So if I understand correctly, you consider any standard Christian version of Matthew to be valid since you are only looking for various sayings in which you feel have not been altered? Is that a correct assessment?

 

[Sedim Haba]

...
So if I understand correctly, you consider any standard Christian version of Matthew to be valid since you are only looking for various sayings in which you feel have not been altered? Is that a correct assessment?

Thank you for all the above information, I will look into it. I've also ran into people trying to
re-create that 'Teaching scroll of Matthew'. It's all very interesting to me.

But since the Church persecuted and subsequently wiped out the (to them) 'heretical'
Ebionite communities where ever they found them, we have no continuous tradition.
SO... folk feel kind of free to create their 'reconstructed traditions' as they see fit.

Myself, the utility of the label is in that it conveys that I'm not Christian, despite my exploration
into this. That I can declare to be a disciple of Yeshua WITHOUT the oh-so-problematic
theology of incarnationists. Or the most obvious lack of any Davidic prophecy fulfillment.

I simply try to understand this pivotal figure at this crucial stage in history, knowing what is
to come. Believing that this was all part of G-d's plan, by creating a path for Edom and by
extension a path for us expanding into this Galut Edom, a problematic but perhaps
necessary framework for our survival. Do I understand it all? No, I do not. That's the challenge!

Yes, I do read the Xian Matthew, with a strong dose of skepticism mind you, doing my best
to 'glean wheat from the chaff'. And there are gems in there.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Thank you for all the above information, I will look into it. I've also ran into people trying to
re-create that 'Teaching scroll of Matthew'. It's all very interesting to me.

But since the Church persecuted and subsequently wiped out the (to them) 'heretical'
Ebionite communities where ever they found them, we have no continuous tradition.
SO... folk feel kind of free to create their 'reconstructed traditions' as they see fit.

Myself, the utility of the label is in that it conveys that I'm not Christian, despite my exploration
into this. That I can declare to be a disciple of Yeshua WITHOUT the oh-so-problematic
theology of incarnationists. Or the most obvious lack of any Davidic prophecy fulfillment.

I simply try to understand this pivotal figure at this crucial stage in history, knowing what is
to come. Believing that this was all part of G-d's plan, by creating a path for Edom and by
extension a path for us expanding into this Galut Edom, a problematic but perhaps
necessary framework for our survival. Do I understand it all? No, I do not. That's the challenge!

Yes, I do read the Xian Matthew, with a strong dose of skepticism mind you, doing my best
to 'glean wheat from the chaff'. And there are gems in there.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

 

[rosends]

Oh, goody, a 'Who is a Jew' attack, my favorite!

Let's see what else you say...



Let's see, ... time zones... definitely posted on Shabbat.
How embarrassing for you, maybe I should post the same question about you...
but that would be lashon hara wouldn't it?
Oh my, again... how embarrassing for you! So sad.
I'll help you not do this anymore because of me,
I'll put you on my 'ignore list' and ask you do likewise.
(really thought an idolator would be first on that list but oh well.)

That wasn't an attack, simply a question. And even assuming that the time tag the system applies reflected the location of the poster, not every jew is sabbath observant, and that isn't a source of shame. I notice you didn't answer the question and instead shifted focus onto something irrelevant.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes. Now it is. BUT even in the written form it was written in a type of code(s). I.e. Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews when studying Mishnah and Talmud are essentially studying Oral Torah and the code that was used to put into written form.

OK, thanks for your answer. But this morning I was reading a little bit from Haggai and his prophecies. It made me think of our conversation a little bit, so here is my next question: when did the Oral Torah stop being written? I know a little of the Talmud to an extent, having gone to a library in NYC that had the Babylonian Talmud in English of course. Naturally I couldn't get through it, but the point is (aside from the two Talmuds), when did they stop being written?

 

[rosends]

When they stop, we'll let you know.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Oh, goody, a 'Who is a Jew' attack, my favorite!

I wasn't attacking. I was asking. If I had asked if you were a Canadian or a Muslim or a Republican, would you have responded that I was making an attack?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

question: when did the Oral Torah stop being written?

One way of looking at it is that the when the Mishnah was completed that was when basic Oral Torah and much of its principles had been completed. What came after was the style of Jewish study that the Torah called for in developing a Torah based culture. I.e. the reason that Hashem gave the nation of Israel the written Torah/oral Torah was/is for said Israeli nation to use it as to form the basis with which the Jewish nation's philosophy, politics, geopolitical, economics, science, mathematics, financial, inter-persoanal, admistrative, moral, miltary, etc. would be determine and developed as a society in any given generation past, present, and future.

It is similar to a statement made by Neil deGrasse Tyson about science.

“But you can’t be a scientist if you’re uncomfortable with ignorance, because scientists live at the boundary between what is known and unknown in the cosmos. This is very different from the way journalists portray us. So many articles begin, “Scientists now have to go back to the drawing board.” It’s as though we’re sitting in our offices, feet up on our desks—masters of the universe—and suddenly say, “Oops, somebody discovered something!”

No. We’re always at the drawing board. If you’re not at the drawing board, you’re not making discoveries."​

Torah study in Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish communities is similar.

 

[YoursTrue]

That wasn't an attack, simply a question. And even assuming that the time tag the system applies reflected the location of the poster, not every jew is sabbath observant, and that isn't a source of shame. I notice you didn't answer the question and instead shifted focus onto something irrelevant.

My question with all of this going on, how can the Jews be united when they can't even agree as to who is a Jew in realtime, meaning halachically.

When they stop, we'll let you know.

Hi rosends.
I wonder how important it is -- some of my relatives are Jewish, went to synagogue, some were Sephardic, others Ashkenazic. Family tradition to celebrate Passover, etc. Sprinkled wine during the Passover meal - the whole Megillah, you know what I mean. They were not well education in Jewry, never heard of either Talmud, never discussed it, and don't know anything about it. Certainly not the "Oral Torah." So who's to say? When, what or where. One woman said a while back right after R. Schneerson died, if he's not the Messiah, no one is. As has been said, 2 Jews, 3 opinions, is that right?

 

[YoursTrue]

One way of looking at it is that the when the Mishnah was completed that was when basic Oral Torah and much of its principles had been completed. What came after was the style of Jewish study that the Torah called for in developing a Torah based culture. I.e. the reason that Hashem gave the nation of Israel the written Torah/oral Torah was/is for said Israeli nation to use it as to form the basis with which the Jewish nation's philosophy, politics, geopolitical, economics, science, mathematics, financial, inter-persoanal, admistrative, moral, miltary, etc. would be determine and developed as a society in any given generation past, present, and future.

It is similar to a statement made by Neil deGrasse Tyson about science.

“But you can’t be a scientist if you’re uncomfortable with ignorance, because scientists live at the boundary between what is known and unknown in the cosmos. This is very different from the way journalists portray us. So many articles begin, “Scientists now have to go back to the drawing board.” It’s as though we’re sitting in our offices, feet up on our desks—masters of the universe—and suddenly say, “Oops, somebody discovered something!”

No. We’re always at the drawing board. If you’re not at the drawing board, you’re not making discoveries."​

Torah study in Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish communities is similar.

Yes, with all respect, I understand. (I don't agree with the conclusion or methodology, but I understand. Thanks.)

 

[YoursTrue]

When they stop, we'll let you know.

YOU'LL let me know?
(lol)