About Judaism and the Messiah question

[YoursTrue]

He is not a Karaite. He identifies himself as an Ebionite.

Ebionites - Wikipedia.

OK, let me follow this if possible. So refresh my memory, please. When Messiah comes, would that be before or after the Jews (all of them?) go to Israel?

 

[YoursTrue]

The jews will inherit the earth..just as scripture says.....and 5he earth will be as hot as mfh...

You mean as hot as some would say 'hell' is? I think it says the RIGHTEOUS will inherit the earth, doesn't it?

 

[YoursTrue]

It is important to remember that in English messiah means something different than what a Davidic king is in Hebrew and for Jews. The way that it will be know who such a king will be is based on two requirements.

1. We would need someone who has been proven to be a (נביא) prophet among the Jewish people to identify someone as being a) from the tribe of Yehudah and b) as being a valid paternal descendent of David through Shlomo (Solomon).
2. There must be a standing Mosaic court to certify the situation. I.e. there has to be a Sanhedrin or Torah based Supreme Court who can back up what the prophet is stating.

After these two things, everything I listed above that the Rambam stated would come into play. I.e. he [the Davidic king] would have to keep Torah and Halakha as it was received at Mount Sinai, he would have to be a respected teacher/leader/scholar in Torah, he would have to be a (נביא) prophet lower than Mosheh (Moses) but wiser than Shlomo (Solomon).

Thus, as a part of the process Jews outside of Israel would return in whole, there would be a restored Torah based government/social structure in Israel, and the Temple would be restored. In what order that all happens we don't focus on. When it happens it happens.

Now we know, don't we, that no one really see God.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

OK, let me follow this if possible. So refresh my memory, please. When Messiah comes, would that be before or after the Jews (all of them?) go to Israel?

See the below, and the red high lighted below:

1. Jews living in Israel, as a whole, desire to return to the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai. (Torah - written and oral)
2. A proven (נביא) prophet in the Jewish community receives something from Hashem that a particular Jewish man is the leader that Hashem has chosen. (Hashem will of course only pick someone who is proven to be an actual paternal descendeant of King David through Solomon.)
   • BTW - there are Jews today living in Israel from various communities who have families that reach back to King David through Solomon.)
3. A standing Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin is able to clarify the person is fit to be king as specified above.
   • Somewhere between the prophet and the Mosaic court an anointing with oil can happen. (The anointing with oil has a specific reason behind it, but it is a long explaination.)
4. Said person will receive prophecy from Hashem of what it is they are to do.
   • Just below the level that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) had.
   • Probably on a level above Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua).
5. Using Torah based wisdom, prophecy, knowledge of science, economics, etc. said Davidic king will be able to lead the Israeli people and bring things back to they way they were between when Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)/Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shlomo HaMelkh (Solomon) led.
   • At some point in the above process there is a return of all Jews, outside of the land of Israel, to Israel.
   • This does not proclude that some Jews will refuse to side with the Torah and instead decide to side with the nations they are found in. This what we call in Hebrew a type of (מינות) i.e. a self-imposed decision to distance themselves from Hashem, the Torah, and the people/nation of Israel.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Now we know, don't we, that no one really see God.

Depends on what you mean by the words, "see" and "god". If you mean that literally someone seeing with their eyeballs the Source of Creation. The problem with that is that humans have a hard enough time see something that isn't right there in front of them, let alone what is in space, what is happening on the molecular level, certain spectrums of light, etc. let alone the Source of what put in place.

We can results of the Source of Creation's work in the universe. A Jew of a certain aptitude can receive what is called in Hebrew (נבואה) that can help them understand things at a lot less physical level.

 

[Harel13]

BTW - there are Jews today living in Israel from various communities who have families that reach back to King David through Solomon.)

Considering that Jews mostly married among themselves and how genealogy spreads through generations, it would not surprise me to learn that all genetic Jews (i.e., not converts) are descendants of David one way or another.

 

[Sedim Haba]

I understand, but where do you get the idea from to do that? Was this something that you found through research that the original Ebionites held by? Couldn't the same then be applied to being ben-David? I.e. Anyone from any background can claim to be a ben-David based on a role or archetype and not based on an ancestry.

Sedim Haba said: Have you ever read the story of Yosef in Me'am Lo'ez?

Yes. Is that where you got the idea from?

These two are related. I stumbled across Yosef in Meam Lo'ez for the parsha, as I often do as Chumash with Rashi does not always satisfy. Quite coincidentally at the same time I was trying to figure out exactly what was the truth about Yeshua. Obviously he was not Messiah ben David, but how to understand what was his role? Surely someone who changed all of history could not have had no part in HaShem's plan? So it was an epiphany quite unexpected. I found out about 'ben Yosef' later. Never even heard of Ebionites.

I finally wrote an intro. It's not very good, but it does touch on this I think.

I won't be able to post any more tonight, worn out from getting the farm ready for winter which seems is coming... Sunday???

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Considering that Jews mostly married among themselves and how genealogy spreads through generations, it would not surprise me to learn that all genetic Jews (i.e., not converts) are descendants of David one way or another.

Possible, but the challenge is a direct line paternally AND only through Shlomo HaMelekh paternally. Also, in the environment we are talking about it would have to be proven and not assumed. Also, because of the fact at some point most Jewish communities did have converts who joined the communities at some stages in history the Navi and Sanhedrin would be a must.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I finally wrote an intro. It's not very good, but it does touch on this I think.

Yeah, I saw that. I didn't see in your intro though which version of Matthew you consider to be authentic and auhoratative.

 

[Jedster]

Haven't read all the posts here, but how would you know that M. Schneerson was not the Messiah? Also, what about the Chabad movements? Do they believe M. Schneerson was the Messiah?

Some probably still do.

 

[dybmh]

how would you know that M. Schneerson was not the Messiah?

the 3rd temple hasn't been built, and the jewish people are not united

Also, what about the Chabad movements? Do they believe M. Schneerson was the Messiah?

I have never met a Chabadnik who thinks he was at this point.

 

[YoursTrue]

Ok

the 3rd temple hasn't been built, and the jewish people are not united

I have never met a Chabadnik who thinks he was at this point.

Ok, just wondering. But did they think he might have been?
As far as being unified, that's a big question. And what makes you believe the Jewish people must be unified? In what sense anyway?
P.S. seems like it's going to take a while for the third temple to be built. But thanks for the answers.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some probably still do.

I wonder.

 

[YoursTrue]

See the below, and the red high lighted below:

1. Jews living in Israel, as a whole, desire to return to the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai. (Torah - written and oral)
2. A proven (נביא) prophet in the Jewish community receives something from Hashem that a particular Jewish man is the leader that Hashem has chosen. (Hashem will of course only pick someone who is proven to be an actual paternal descendeant of King David through Solomon.)
   • BTW - there are Jews today living in Israel from various communities who have families that reach back to King David through Solomon.)
3. A standing Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin is able to clarify the person is fit to be king as specified above.
   • Somewhere between the prophet and the Mosaic court an anointing with oil can happen. (The anointing with oil has a specific reason behind it, but it is a long explaination.)
4. Said person will receive prophecy from Hashem of what it is they are to do.
   • Just below the level that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) had.
   • Probably on a level above Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua).
5. Using Torah based wisdom, prophecy, knowledge of science, economics, etc. said Davidic king will be able to lead the Israeli people and bring things back to they way they were between when Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)/Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shlomo HaMelkh (Solomon) led.
   • At some point in the above process there is a return of all Jews, outside of the land of Israel, to Israel.
   • This does not proclude that some Jews will refuse to side with the Torah and instead decide to side with the nations they are found in. This what we call in Hebrew a type of (מינות) i.e. a self-imposed decision to distance themselves from Hashem, the Torah, and the people/nation of Israel.

Well, since I'm not that well be versed in Judaism about these things, is the oral Torah written down somewhere?

 

[dybmh]

Ok, just wondering. But did they think he might have been

I honestly don't know. The Rebbe died before I became active in the Chabad community ( I had just graduated from High School, not interested in religion ).

As far as being unified, that's a big question. And what makes you believe the Jewish people must be unified? In what sense anyway?

Unified as a nation, The Jewish Messiah will gather the Jewish people into one nation observing Torah law.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, since I'm not that well be versed in Judaism about these things, is the oral Torah written down somewhere?

It is now. It is called the Talmud. The problem is, the Talmud records many things that were said, all sides of an argument. One must still know tradition in order to know what parts of the Talmud are halakha and what parts are not. This is why someone can't just order the Talmud from Amazon, read it, and think they understand Jewish law.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Wondering what Jews believe (not sure if this is the right forum) about Maimonides and one of the articles of faith about the Messiah. In conjunction with Rambam's belief or conviction, do Jews currently believe that they will all have to be in Israel when the Messiah appears?

Two Jews, three opinions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Q(sometimes when I'm extremely frustrated with replacement theology

Just curious if you are halakhically a Jew.

 

[Jedster]

I wonder.

I was a Chabadnik for a short time(several decades ago) and knew a few then. I only know of one now.

 

[YoursTrue]

Two Jews, three opinions.

They can't all be right, can they? Besides, how will they all get together then to accept the messiah?