...about killing babies.

[Koldo]

Choice + sex education/condoms + social justice = pro life.

Fairly simple really. If you really are against abortions you should take all your time, passion, energy and money and support programs for sex education and social justice because those are demonstrated to actually reduce abortions.

Moralizing about it and making it illegal, OTOH, have been demonstrated to have no effect on the rate at which it occurs and a demonstrably negative effect on the rate of death and serious injuries.

Thus, what people are calling "pro life" is actually anti-life and anti-sex. Pro-choice - when combined with pro-sex education and pro-social justice - IS pro-life. It reduces abortions and it makes the ones that occur much safer.

God agrees. She has spoken to us through our research.

I agree.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Fair enough! I cannot argue with that!

One can always argue.

Well, that's the thing, though. It is by no means clearly decided (outside of radical fundamentalist circles) that any part of the Bible is, in fact, the literal word of God at all. Even to those who believe that God dictated much of the Torah to Moses,

I have a bias...

or had conversation directly with the prophets,

... that it is, the words of the prophets. And not just because I am "self-proclaimed prophet;" but because the whole of scripture can be resolved through the prophet perspective.

there is still the acknowledgement that God's words had to be understood and set down accurately by flawed, imperfect human agents, and transmitted through the ages by even more flawed, imperfect human agents. Add to that the core concept in Jewish thought that the Torah is infinitely interpretable, and has limitless levels of meaning. What results is quite a lot of lattitude for possibilities, both in terms of arguing what God may want from us, and in arguing what God has not spoken to us about.

The father can protect the son for only so long, and let the boy grow into the man, grow into the world. And the man can be the father's shadow for only so long; but to grow into, radiate, rather than reflect, the honor of the father.

The problem, IMO, is not folks claiming that such-and-such a verse in the Bible does or does not support the idea that God wishes us to be prohibited from X or encouraged to do Y, but in claiming that said verse can only be interpreted to mean that, and that that single intepretation is the precise and literal command of God.

It is part of my nurture, as opposed to nature; to be raised in view of that aberrant American beastie - the Bible thumper - and I have developed, antibodies. That I argue mostly against, rather than for, by proclaiming scripture... and like I tell the locals; whatever Jesus said, it wasn't English.

And in any case, it is hard to say that there is an objective word of God outside of the scriptures that we have, with which scripture might be unfavorably compared, which might be clearer or more comprehensible to us. At least, such a word would not seem to be accessible to us on this plane of existence.

I have found consideration of the tao te ching a sufficient seasoning to give scripture a full-bodied taste.

My father's rabbi, who was his head-of-yeshiva, commenting on Psalm 19:8 Torat YHVH temimah, meshivat nafesh... ("The Torah of YHVH is perfect, refreshing the soul...") said, "Yes, the Torah of Hashem is perfect, that remains with Him, in the Heavens. The Torah we have is only a reflection of that, the only kind suitable to our imperfect universe." Perhaps we can know the Torah of God in the World To Come, but not in this world, I think. For this world, we have only what has been passed down to us, and our own abilities to interpret it.

Perhaps let's say that the whole cultural tradition that authored it is but a hundredth of the traditions that are using it. To be fair, among its original cultural tradition it is only sometimes abused, and even among the traditions that have appropriated for their own uses, it is not always abused.

But I am American, twenty different churches within half a click; the use of one is oft to the abuse of another.

That is extremely high praise, and I thank you for it very much, and can only hope to live up to it!

Goes like this. Came to this board, not anti-, but definitely not pro-, Semite. There was exchange with Ben Masada. There was exchange with Levite. And yesterday, I was on-line looking for a synagogue... so, living it down, might be the hard part.

 

[ellenjanuary]

IMO, it is all a big nitpicking.

Perhaps why you do not grasp the nit. Little, is the way to nitpick.

And doppelgänger laid it out. "Pro-abortion" implies abortion is the prime choice, over counseling, adoption programs, etc... "pro-choice" lacks such implication.

Doesn't this mean you support abortion in certain cases?
I don't see how "pro-choice" implies anything other than choice over abortion. Sex education and other birth control means can be defended by both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" ,or not.

"Pro-lifers" and birth control? :areyoucra

 

[Koldo]

Perhaps why you do not grasp the nit. Little, is the way to nitpick.

All a big nitpicking....

And doppelgänger laid it out. "Pro-abortion" implies abortion is the prime choice, over counseling, adoption programs, etc... "pro-choice" lacks such implication.

Since when does pro-abortion mean the prime choice is abortion? :sarcastic

"Pro-lifers" and birth control? :areyoucra

Condomns and contracepctive pills.

 

[Koldo]

By the way, aren't you the one who likes precise diction?

'Pro-choice' doesn't imply anything related to counseling nor adopting programs.

 

[ellenjanuary]

By the way, aren't you the one who likes precise diction?

'Pro-choice' doesn't imply anything related to counseling nor adopting programs.

And you are correct. "Pro-choice" is a political position, predating my membership.

 

[Koldo]

And you are correct. "Pro-choice" is a political position, predating my membership.

Which is , in fact, pro-abortion.

The only reason for choosing the name 'pro-choice' is because of political framing.

It is ,however, worth note that 'pro-life' is even more aggressive on political framing.

 

[Alceste]

IMO, it is all a big nitpicking.



Doesn't this mean you support abortion in certain cases?
I don't see how "pro-choice" implies anything other than choice over abortion. Sex education and other birth control means can be defended by both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" ,or not.

Pro-choice implies that women choose whether or not to become mothers, and when. There is much more to it than access to safe, legal abortion, but that is a necessary part of the picture. I support women, their right to privacy, their right to access adequate health services to suit their needs, their right to autonomy and self-determination. Abortion is a matter best left to the conscience of the individual faced with an unwanted pregnancy. I support women in that situation regardless of what course of action they choose, so it can not be said that I feel preferentially supportive towards one single option.

 

[Koldo]

Pro-choice implies that women choose whether or not to become mothers, and when. There is much more to it than access to safe, legal abortion, but that is a necessary part of the picture. I support women, their right to privacy, their right to access adequate health services to suit their needs, their right to autonomy and self-determination. Abortion is a matter best left to the conscience of the individual faced with an unwanted pregnancy. I support women in that situation regardless of what course of action they choose, so it can not be said that I feel preferentially supportive towards one single option.

You support for there to exist an option of abortion. This is essentially the same as being 'pro-abortion'.

However, I understand why you wouldn't want to use such term to define your point of view as it can be misleading to some people. There are some people who think that being 'pro-abortion' means that you are fine with the abusive/extreme use of abortion as means of birth control, and such is really not necessarily the case.

 

[Alceste]

You support for there to exist an option of abortion. This is essentially the same as being 'pro-abortion'.

However, I understand why you wouldn't want to use such term to define your point of view as it can be misleading to some people. There are some people who think that being 'pro-abortion' means that you are fine with the abusive/extreme use of abortion as means of birth control, and such is really not necessarily the case.

It also allows the religious fanatics to frame the debate. Abortion is not the issue. It is only one facet of a much larger issue - women's health and reproductive choice. It's important that safe, legal access to abortion is preserved, but it isn't the whole issue. The fanatics won't even tolerate the "morning after pill", for heaven's sake, and they tell children - in secular public schools - that condoms are completely permeable to semen. We are dealing with a lot more than just abortion.

 

[Koldo]

It also allows the religious fanatics to frame the debate. Abortion is not the issue. It is only one facet of a much larger issue - women's health and reproductive choice. It's important that safe, legal access to abortion is preserved, but it isn't the whole issue. The fanatics won't even tolerate the "morning after pill", for heaven's sake, and they tell children - in secular public schools - that condoms are completely permeable to semen. We are dealing with a lot more than just abortion.

I understand. However, i would dare to say that abortion is the main issue, albeit not the only one.

 

[Alceste]

I understand. However, i would dare to say that abortion is the main issue, albeit not the only one.

It's the main issue for the anti-choice movement, not for their opponents. Comprehensive, accurate sex education and universal access to birth control is the main issue for me.

 

[Father Heathen]

No one supports abortion. I support choice.

I support abortion and believe that it's the best choice in most if not all cases. Not only is overpopulation an issue, so is ****-poor parenting.

 

[Koldo]

It's the main issue for the anti-choice movement, not for their opponents. Comprehensive, accurate sex education and universal access to birth control is the main issue for me.

I am interested. I have been looking for the history of the pro-choice movement, but i couldn't find it anywhere.

I have always thought it started because of the abortion issue. If such really is the case, then abortion really is the main topic.

 

[Alceste]

I am interested. I have been looking for the history of the pro-choice movement, but i couldn't find it anywhere.

I have always thought it started because of the abortion issue. If such really is the case, then abortion really is the main topic.

Pro-Choice isn't a "movement", so it hasn't got a history. Not outside the larger context of women's rights, anyway. It's just women being women. We have attempted to control reproduction forever. The main weapon in their arsenal has been the pill since the 50s or so, but before that there were herbal teas, strange douches and suppositories, and - when all else failed - unlicensed, untrained abortionists operating in unsanitary conditions or self-abuse. My great grandmother is the only woman I have ever known who did not attempt to control her reproduction. She had 16 kids. If we weren't ALL exercising some degree of reproductive choice, that would be the norm.

 

[Koldo]

Pro-Choice isn't a "movement", so it hasn't got a history. Not outside the larger context of women's rights, anyway. It's just women being women. We have attempted to control reproduction forever. The main weapon in their arsenal has been the pill since the 50s or so, but before that there were herbal teas, strange douches and suppositories, and - when all else failed - unlicensed, untrained abortionists operating in unsanitary conditions or self-abuse. My great grandmother is the only woman I have ever known who did not attempt to control her reproduction. She had 16 kids. If we weren't ALL exercising some degree of reproductive choice, that would be the norm.

I used the term quite loosely. However, this name had to be first spread out to be widely accepted. My question is exactly how , who, and when this was done.

Maybe it was at first a name used to women's right in general, or maybe it was used when it was decided to accept abortion openly as a choice. That is what i want to know.

 

[Koldo]

Just curious.

'Pro-choice' , is choice over what?
Please offer evidence for your answer.

 

[Alceste]

I used the term quite loosely. However, this name had to be first spread out to be widely accepted. My question is exactly how , who, and when this was done.

Maybe it was at first a name used to women's right in general, or maybe it was used when it was decided to accept abortion openly as a choice. That is what i want to know.

Roe vs. Wade in the US.

 

[Koldo]

Roe vs. Wade in the US.

Thansks for the reply.

So isn't it accurate to say that abortion is at least one of the main issues of 'pro-choice'?

As far as what i have read in Roe vs. Wade, it is all about the right to have control over birth, and ultimately the right to abortion. It would seem to me quite weird if the latter part was not considered as important.

 

[Alceste]

Just curious.

'Pro-choice' , is choice over what?
Please offer evidence for your answer.

Reproductive choice. What kind of evidence are you looking for?