About that Gaza flotilla...

[Smoke]

They rejected the offer because Israel would not allow the majority of the aid to pass through unhindered and indeed they were right.

The Israelis made an offer and it was rejected, so they were under no obligation to keep their part of the rejected agreement. Building materials are not ordinarily allowed into Gaza. This was a rare opportunity to get some in, but the activists rejected it, precisely because they had no interest in providing actual aid to Gaza. They intended to break the blockade or achieve a public relations coup. "Aid" was solely for show, as shown by the expired medications and the fact that three of the ships carried no "aid" at all.

 

[kai]

The Israelis made an offer and it was rejected, so they were under no obligation to keep their part of the rejected agreement. Building materials are not ordinarily allowed into Gaza. This was a rare opportunity to get some in, but the activists rejected it, precisely because they had no interest in providing actual aid to Gaza. They intended to break the blockade or achieve a public relations coup. "Aid" was solely for show, as shown by the expired medications and the fact that three of the ships carried no "aid" at all.

I am tending to agree with you here if aid was paramount then they would have delivered it to Ashdod.

I believe it was a political showcase that cost lives and some on board that ship were willing to lose those lives. I would be interested in how many of the fatalities were Activists like the MB.

 

[England my lionheart]

I am tending to agree with you here if aid was paramount then they would have delivered it to Ashdod.

I believe it was a political showcase that cost lives and some on board that ship were willing to lose those lives. I would be interested in how many of the fatalities were Activists like the MB.

Heres one from the Gaza flotilla attack: Turkish activists killed in raid 'wanted to be martyrs' - Telegraph

Yesterday the wife of one of the men, Ali Haydar Bengi, said he “constantly prayed to become a martyr”. Mr Bengi, 39, who had four children, had studied at al-Azhar University in Cairo, a leading seat of Islamic learning.

and more

Dr. Abd Al-Fatah Shayyeq Naaman, a lecturer in Islamic Shari’ah law at a university in Yemen, who visited Gaza, stated:
“The [Gaza] flotilla commander said yesterday: ‘We will not allow the Zionists to get near us and we will use resistance against them.’ How will they wage resistance? They will resist with their fingernails. They are people who seek Martyrdom for Allah, as much as they want to reach Gaza, but the first [Martyrdom] is more desirable.”

Well they can have no complaints as they got what they desired

An Al Jazeera news report yesterday translated by Palestinian Media Watch documented men on the flotilla chanting “[Remember] Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!”
That chant is often used at rallies for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Khaibar is the name of the last Jewish village defeated by Muhammad in 628. That battle marked the end of the Jewish presence in Arabia.
Al-Jazeera also interviewed a woman on the flotilla who said that the participants’ goal was “one of two happy endings: either martyrdom or reaching Gaza.”

Looks like all those who may have been genuine peaceful protesters were well and truly suckered,how sad.

 

[arimoff]

True, but the United Nations declared it to be illegal and it is the only system in place to make such declarations. Without the United Nations, there is no such thing as international law, even if the current one has no enforcement policies and the laws only have power because countries voluntarily follow them (or will be crushed by NATO, one of the two).

So if it is debatable, it is only because the legality of something is contingent on the validation of the institution that declares things illegal or not.

But the report specifically shows evidence of Israeli commandos breaking the Geneva Convention. Whether the Geneva Convention legitimately holds weight is based solely on whether we choose to follow it or not.

The UN has no ability to do anything, it is mostly dominated by Muslim countries whose believes are not based on freedom, if you want you can join it or anything else you want, to normal people the UN is an embarrassment with all those who defend it.

The biggest example is Libya. Why is Libya on UN human rights council? It does not deserve to be there and you are defending all these begets who all deserve nothing but death penalties.

 

[Smoke]

The UN has no ability to do anything, it is mostly dominated by Muslim countries whose believes are not based on freedom, if you want you can join it or anything else you want, to normal people the UN is an embarrassment with all those who defend it.

The biggest example is Libya. Why is Libya on UN human rights council?

Seriously. Or Moldova or Saudi Arabia.

I think the UN is a good idea, and I'd like to see that idea better implemented, but the Human Rights Council is one of its most notable failures.

 

[arimoff]

[youtube]IWawHmK2ONE[/youtube]
YouTube - Ignoring evidence, UN Flotilla Chair says: "I never heard the word 'Shahid' before"

Make sure you all watch from 4:00, the stupidity and hatred is beyond my surprise.

Hear the so called educated men say that I don't know what a shahid is and it doesn't make a difference if they wanted to be shahids Israel is responsible is astonishing. The only jobs these two men deserve is mopping floors in a public toilet.

 

[England my lionheart]

That Job is way too good for them,they just wouldn't have the ability to do it,the UN is a Joke.

 

[kai]

The Jihad "Istanbul declaration" and the Gaza Flotilla
ICT - Articles > The Jihad "Istanbul declaration" and the Gaza Flotilla

According to well-documented information, seven of the nine Turks killed in the violent confrontation aboard the Mavi Marmara had previously declared their desire to become martyr (shaheeds). Eight of them belonged Islamist Turkish organizations and not one of them was a peace activist or human rights worker.

Mavi Marmara

 

[croak]

I am talking of course about an official state (and so did Bill), not about a group of people who aspire for a national identity. otherwise your definition of a nation can work on various levels.

I also had First Nations in mind: while they did not have a state as outlined in Western law, it would be hard to argue that they have no right to their ancestral lands.

Do you mean you still cannot find it in the source you cited?

Wikipedia listed some books as references. I don't have those books, and I am not going to read an entire book to see if the claim made on the Wiki page is accurate. I checked the listed websites, but did not find that claim. Besides, nobody specified where that particular claim came from, and considering I spent hours looking online and didn't come up with a valid source, I'm not too inclined to resume searching again.

Which points are you undecided about? I think that as Lebanese, your input on these kind of discussions may prove to be essential.
and you are right.. studying 'heavy duty' material on the subject is important and valuable, it accompanies well following the political ploys and experiencing the region.
I've studied a lot from reading individuals such as Edward Said, and Chomsky. Chomsky also proved to be interesting in many ways because I started reading him when I was serving as commander at the time, so you can imagine it made me do a lot of extra thinking just before the second Intifada broke out and we were sent in.

I doubt myself a lot. If I gave into those doubts, I wouldn't get anything posted on this forum. In particular, I might quote a source that seems valid on the surface, but because I haven't done the background research, I can't be sure. Something might sound plausible or true, and I'll refer to it, but if someone else provides proof it isn't, I'll discard the idea.

I need to start doing more reading. On the subject of Israel and Palestine we probably have at least five or ten.

 

[Caladan]

I also had First Nations in mind: while they did not have a state as outlined in Western law, it would be hard to argue that they have no right to their ancestral lands.

croak, sorry for my sense for the sardonic, but both you and me live in the middle east.. they might have the right, but when did 'Oriental' people like you and me ever witnessed social or political justice in this region?
The native Arabs of this land are of course the indigenous people of this land, but just like modern people promoted the Zionist enterprise, and invented a modern Jewish myth in this land, so do the native Arabs of this land or at least their descendants are trying to do now, with the term 'Palestinian'.

Wikipedia listed some books as references. I don't have those books, and I am not going to read an entire book to see if the claim made on the Wiki page is accurate. I checked the listed websites, but did not find that claim. Besides, nobody specified where that particular claim came from, and considering I spent hours looking online and didn't come up with a valid source, I'm not too inclined to resume searching again.

With all due respect croak, you are tearing down the source you yourself have provided.

I doubt myself a lot. If I gave into those doubts, I wouldn't get anything posted on this forum. In particular, I might quote a source that seems valid on the surface, but because I haven't done the background research, I can't be sure. Something might sound plausible or true, and I'll refer to it, but if someone else provides proof it isn't, I'll discard the idea.

I need to start doing more reading. On the subject of Israel and Palestine we probably have at least five or ten.

You should, its one of the 'hottest' topics in international media
and if Arabs truly care about the Palestinian cause as they say, they have no right to speak their opinions unless they take the effort to be informed. both on the situation of the Palestinians in their own nations (first in my opinion), and then perhaps take the time to read about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

[croak]

I think you should be the one checking facts, according to your words just because I wasn't born in Israel and I'm Jewish it makes me Israeli and you don't want me making claims to that land don't you? So check what you post.

Technically you can be Israeli according to Israeli law. If you express the desire to immigrate there, and you are a Jew, you can gain citizenship.
Law of Return 5710-1950 So, according to the law of the State of Israel, and not the top of my head, you can be Israeli. Of course, if you don't want to, you don't have to be.

Feel free to make claims to the physical territory. I happen to feel that people who may have lived on the land you are claiming and were forced to leave have a greater right to it than you, but I can't stop you. I can't stop some people in Canada from building on lands that belong to the Tsimshian or the Cree, but I do feel that First Nations have a greater right to the land their ancestors lived on than others. I acknowledge that my opinion is not going to result in the dissolution of the State of Canada, and I acknowledge likewise for the State of Israel.

I could go on and on about my beliefs, which may be subject to change, but this is not the proper thread for it. I thought I'd address your comments, though.

As a Jew I have more rights to that land then all Arabs together and Arafat was not Palestinian there was no Palestinian people, stop craping on history, you can claim all you want but facts are facts.

For me, the rights of that land belong to those that have lived on it. Most Arabs do not and have not, and I would not say that they have any right to it. Palestinians, however, are a different matter. Apparently some of my ancestors lived in Palestine, but since I feel no tie to the land and haven't tread on its soil, become a part of the community there, or recall anything of my ancestors, I would say I have no right to the land, any more than any immigrant.

I suppose you could debate the existence of the Palestinian people and lump them together with other Arabs. Then again, that would be assuming Arabs are a monolithic
entity, which they clearly are not.

As for having more of a right to the land because of a religious belief... I don't think that should be the sole criterion. Again, this is not the proper thread to discuss this. Feel free to start a thread on the subject.

Have I lied about any historical matters?
Have I claimed any opinions as fact?
Have I posted facts without evidence to back them up?

If I have, please tell me. If I truly have, then I apologize, and will correct myself with credit to yourself.

 

[croak]

croak, sorry for my sense for the sardonic, but both you and me live in the middle east.. they might have the right, but when did 'Oriental' people like you and me ever witnessed social or political justice in this region?
The native Arabs of this land are of course the indigenous people of this land, but just like modern people promoted the Zionist enterprise, and invented a modern Jewish myth in this land, so do the native Arabs of this land or at least their descendants are trying to do now, with the term 'Palestinian'.

Just like I don't expect Canada, the United States, and basically most countries of the world to fully acknowledge the rights of their indigenous populations (because doing that could possibly lead to the end of the countries themselves), I don't expect Israel to simply throw up its (metaphorical) hands and sign its own death warrant. However, there is justice that they are capable of, and likewise with other countries. Then again, social and political justice don't tend to be high priorities.

The term Palestinian is a two-edged sword. Calling oneself a Palestinian narrows down your heritage to the area occupied by modern Israel (and the Occupied Territories). However, it is clear that the idea of the state of Palestine is a modern idea. As well, the idea of a Palestinian nationality only really solidified after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Eh, I don't really like the idea of governments and states, but they are a part of the world we live in, so I have to acknowledge their existence. And I can't recall where I was going with this....

With all due respect croak, you are tearing down the source you yourself have provided.

Most of the information on the wiki page is verifiable, which is why I presented it. However, everyone should take Wikipedia with a grain of salt, which is what I do. Since anyone can edit it, anyone can add anything they want to it. However, if the information presented in the article can be verified by a legitimate outside source, then it is trustworthy. Much of that article has links to footnotes, but not all of it: the line in question is of the latter.

You should, its one of the 'hottest' topics in international media
and if Arabs truly care about the Palestinian cause as they say, they have no right to speak their opinions unless they take the effort to be informed. both on the situation of the Palestinians in their own nations (first in my opinion), and then perhaps take the time to read about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

But of course.

I agree that people should be informed about what they choose to talk about, but sadly, that is not a requirement. I believe you will agree that that is an issue on both sides of the fence.

If I go to university here, I'll keep that in mind, though. Wonder if anyone would accuse me of being a Zionist, for instance. Worth the laughs.

 

[Caladan]

Just like I don't expect Canada, the United States, and basically most countries of the world to fully acknowledge the rights of their indigenous populations (because doing that could possibly lead to the end of the countries themselves), I don't expect Israel to simply throw up its (metaphorical) hands and sign its own death warrant.

This is a realistic approach. when Muslims say that the Jews have no right for a state, they are weakening any chance for a serious political point, and everyone on the stage of international politics look at them as circus clowns.
Israel is a nation built by refugees and immigrants, people who have lost their homes and families, will be willing to do the most brutal things in order to keep their territory, which the Jews did.

However, there is justice that they are capable of, and likewise with other countries. Then again, social and political justice don't tend to be high priorities.

I dont believe justice has a place in politics.

Most of the information on the wiki page is verifiable, which is why I presented it. However, everyone should take Wikipedia with a grain of salt, which is what I do. Since anyone can edit it, anyone can add anything they want to it. However, if the information presented in the article can be verified by a legitimate outside source, then it is trustworthy. Much of that article has links to footnotes, but not all of it: the line in question is of the latter.

As long as you dont claim that the information which supports your argument is valid and that which does not is not valid, from the source you have provided.

I agree that people should be informed about what they choose to talk about, but sadly, that is not a requirement. I believe you will agree that that is an issue on both sides of the fence.

I'm not sure, many Israelis are obsessed with debating politics.

If I go to university here, I'll keep that in mind, though. Wonder if anyone would accuse me of being a Zionist, for instance. Worth the laughs.

For studying the politics of the region?

 

[croak]

This is a realistic approach. when Muslims say that the Jews have no right for a state, they are weakening any chance for a serious political point, and everyone on the stage of international politics look at them as circus clowns.
Israel is a nation built by refugees and immigrants, people who have lost their homes and families, will be willing to do the most brutal things in order to keep their territory, which the Jews did.

Do Jews have an inherent right to a Jewish state? I don't know about that. But do they have the right to live in any state they choose? Of course (barring those states that have anything against Jews). Likewise for Muslims and any other religious group.

If you are referring to the Jews that immigrated to Palestine, I don't see why they could not have a state, and likewise for Palestinians. A single secular state that does not describe itself as Jewish, Muslim, Arab, or any other ethnicity or religion would make the most sense to me.

Israel is also a nation that created refugees; Palestinians also lost their homes and families, and were willing to do the most brutal things to keep that territory. Not that I agree with brutality from either side.

I dont believe justice has a place in politics.

Politicians have to take account of it, or they may lose their positions in power.

As long as you dont claim that the information which supports your argument is valid and that which does not is not valid, from the source you have provided.

If I could find the source of the claim in the source I provided, and found it to be factual, I would clearly find it valid. It doesn't have to support my argument. Likewise, if I referred to any information in that source which does not appear to be backed up by facts, let me know and I will see if I can find anything in support of it. If not, I'll retract my claim. I will admit that I tend to trust claims made in books if I don't see a clear bias: researching the claims made by books... I'm not a historian.

I'm not sure, many Israelis are obsessed with debating politics.

You can't say that Israelis and pro-Israelis never indulge in myths comparable to those offered by Palestinians and pro-Palestinians. Some on both sides might be educated about the issue. The vast majority probably believe what those around them believe. For instance, plenty of people believe that Palestine was a desert until Israel made it green, or that Arabs never lived in Palestine but suddenly all immigrated from other countries.

And likewise, many Lebanese are obsessed with debating politics.

For studying the politics of the region?

Just like you can be considered a self-hating Jew if you question Israel, I could be considered a Zionist for questioning Palestine. Wouldn't make sense, but then again, people aren't always rational.

 

[Caladan]

Do Jews have an inherent right to a Jewish state? I don't know about that

Seriously croak, give yourself a break.. the Jews took it by force and by outsmarting the Arabs who just set on their ***** and smoked their hookahs. do they think any Jew cares if any Arab around the world thinks this land is theirs or not?

. But do they have the right to live in any state they choose? Of course (barring those states that have anything against Jews). Likewise for Muslims and any other religious group.

this isnt about rights or justice, this is about survival. its the law of nature.

If you are referring to the Jews that immigrated to Palestine, I don't see why they could not have a state, and likewise for Palestinians. A single secular state that does not describe itself as Jewish, Muslim, Arab, or any other ethnicity or religion would make the most sense to me.

neither me nor any other Israeli Jew wants that. why would we? the Palestinians are completely backwards compared to us.. why would we downgrade our nation? we already have our norms and our traditions.. do you think we are capable of or want to change any of that?

Israel is also a nation that created refugees; Palestinians also lost their homes and families, and were willing to do the most brutal things to keep that territory. Not that I agree with brutality from either side.

Yes.. and apparently the Israelis outbrutalized them. you need to realize that, when the Arab armies invaded Israel in 48, they were fighting many men who were veterans of the bloodiest and roughest war in human history, they learned from the Nazi Jaggernaut, and to this day the Israeli army is modeled after the old German forces.

Politicians have to take account of it, or they may lose their positions in power.

really? look at the Arab states.. its dominated by dictators who master the abuse of their people. they never lose their position, their sons replace them.

You can't say that Israelis and pro-Israelis never indulge in myths comparable to those offered by Palestinians and pro-Palestinians. Some on both sides might be educated about the issue. The vast majority probably believe what those around them believe. For instance, plenty of people believe that Palestine was a desert until Israel made it green, or that Arabs never lived in Palestine but suddenly all immigrated from other countries.

there is truth and false in all of that.

Just like you can be considered a self-hating Jew if you question Israel, I could be considered a Zionist for questioning Palestine. Wouldn't make sense, but then again, people aren't always rational.

OK.

 

[croak]

Seriously croak, give yourself a break.. the Jews took it by force and by outsmarting the Arabs who just set on their ***** and smoked their hookahs. do they think any Jew cares if any Arab around the world thinks this land is theirs or not?

Well, some clearly do. Do you want to go into the details of how Israel achieved independence? You could do a doctoral dissertation on the subject. In any case, that would be going more off-topic than we already are.

this isnt about rights or justice, this is about survival. its the law of nature.

Are you implying that Jews would not have survived as a religion or ethnic group without the existence of Israel, or did I read that wrong? I find it hard to believe, in any case.

neither me nor any other Israeli Jew wants that. why would we? the Palestinians are completely backwards compared to us.. why would we downgrade our nation? we already have our norms and our traditions.. do you think we are capable of or want to change any of that?

Ah, now you're generalizing. Keep to your norms and traditions. What does that have to do with the Palestinians? And backwards in what way? Education: sure, if they're receiving a substandard one. Religiosity? Israel has a substantial population of religious folks who would choose to "downgrade" Israel. I don't really know what to make of this.

Yes.. and apparently the Israelis outbrutalized them. you need to realize that, when the Arab armies invaded Israel in 48, they were fighting many men who were veterans of the bloodiest and roughest war in human history, they learned from the Nazi Jaggernaut, and to this day the Israeli army is modeled after the old German forces.

This isn't a competition of who suffered more. Are you saying they learned from the Nazis and applied what was used on them to "deal" with the Palestinians?

really? look at the Arab states.. its dominated by dictators who master the abuse of their people. they never lose their position, their sons replace them.

I was talking about countries where it actually matters what the politicians say or do, in being that it can cost them on the next elections. Basically, democracies.

there is truce and false in all of that.

Falsehood in what sense? Did I lie?

OK.

All right.

 

[Caladan]

Well, some clearly do. Do you want to go into the details of how Israel achieved independence? You could do a doctoral dissertation on the subject. In any case, that would be going more off-topic than we already are.

sure, if we are up for it.

Are you implying that Jews would not have survived as a religion or ethnic group without the existence of Israel, or did I read that wrong? I find it hard to believe, in any case.

No, I'm answering you whether the Jews had 'the right' to the land.. I answered that the stronger side won, as always happens in nature, to use a metaphor.

Ah, now you're generalizing. Keep to your norms and traditions. What does that have to do with the Palestinians? And backwards in what way? Education: sure, if they're receiving a substandard one. Religiosity? Israel has a substantial population of religious folks who would choose to "downgrade" Israel. I don't really know what to make of this.

If I understood you correctly, you are talking about the 'one state solution', and im giving you the Israeli opinion, which is not even an issue, as most Israelis dont even take the time to comment on it, Israelis have a decent lives for themselves, in recent polls, Israel was ranked 8th in the world with happiest people, for the sake of argument, what reason do Israeli have to create one state with the people they have been occupying for the last decades? it is 100% absurd.

This isn't a competition of who suffered more. Are you saying they learned from the Nazis and applied what was used on them to "deal" with the Palestinians?

That is not what i am saying at all. im saying that the Arab governments were naive enough to think that because they invade with 7 armies and local Fedayeen they could win the campaign, but apparently they did not take into account enough that they were about to fight battle hardened veterans, with training in modern armies, and experience of an exhausting war, plus they were fighting the local Jews who have just driven out the British troops out of Palestine.

Falsehood in what sense? Did I lie?

for example, some parts of the land were populated by Arabs, some parts were not, and many Arabs DID use the expertise and development the Jews brought with them from Europe into this land.

 

[croak]

sure, if we are up for it.

I don't have the stamina. I could try, but not at the rate we're going.

No, I'm answering you whether the Jews had 'the right' to the land.. I answered that the stronger side won, as always happens in nature, to use a metaphor.

Ah, I see. Then again, it is not always the stronger side: sometimes it is the more intelligent one; sometimes it is dumb luck. As for conquering giving someone the right to land: I thought we had got over that mentality. Not to mention the conquered don't tend to give up unless they have been assimilated or annihilated. I can acknowledge Israel's existence, but I can't agree to any "right" to exist.

If I understood you correctly, you are talking about the 'one state solution', and im giving you the Israeli opinion, which is not even an issue, as most Israelis dont even take the time to comment on it, Israelis have a decent lives for themselves, in recent polls, Israel was ranked 8th in the world with happiest people, for the sake of argument, what reason do Israeli have to create one state with the people they have been occupying for the last decades? it is 100% absurd.

Yes, I am. I would have preferred that to be the case from the start. In any case, the idea is that, if you don't, you'll probably be fighting against the people you have been occupying for the rest of your nation's existence. If you can live with the inevitable insurrections, okay. If the plan is to end the idea of Palestine and totally assimilate or otherwise "get rid of" the Palestinians, I suppose that is possible, but morally repugnant. Not to mention that if it does work, it will probably take a long, long time to reach that point. If violence is incorporated, it probably would take substantially less.

That is not what i am saying at all. im saying that the Arab governments were naive enough to think that because they invade with 7 armies and local Fedayeen they could win the campaign, but apparently they did not take into account enough that they were about to fight battle hardened veterans, with training in modern armies, and experience of an exhausting war, plus they were fighting the local Jews who have just driven out the British troops out of Palestine.

Ah, okay. I admit that the Arab strategy was idiotic, to say the least.

for example, some parts of the land were populated by Arabs, some parts were not, and many Arabs DID use the expertise and development the Jews brought with them from Europe into this land.

I realize the Negev, for instance, is sparsely populated, with some parts likely devoid of human life. That does not mean that saying Palestine as a whole was a desert (which is implied by the statement) cannot be construed as a complete falsehood. And of course Arabs used the expertise and development: why wouldn't they? Some people think the entire land of Palestine was a desert and devoid of people: you can't rationalize that.

 

[Caladan]

I don't have the stamina. I could try, but not at the rate we're going.

Haha.. tell me if you do want to. this could be a very constructive mental torture for both of us!

Ah, I see. Then again, it is not always the stronger side: sometimes it is the more intelligent one; sometimes it is dumb luck. As for conquering giving someone the right to land: I thought we had got over that mentality. Not to mention the conquered don't tend to give up unless they have been assimilated or annihilated. I can acknowledge Israel's existence, but I can't agree to any "right" to exist.

You're not feeling me here croak.. Israelis dont ask anyone for a right to exist, it is now a fact in the middle east, and the only way to take that right is by force, which the Arabs tried to and failed. so it really doesnt matter if 200 million Arabs around 6 million Jews think the Jews have no right to exist, the ironic fact is that the Jews are the most prosperous nation in an Arab region. and they do it with impunity.

Yes, I am. I would have preferred that to be the case from the start. In any case, the idea is that, if you don't, you'll probably be fighting against the people you have been occupying for the rest of your nation's existence. If you can live with the inevitable insurrections, okay. If the plan is to end the idea of Palestine and totally assimilate or otherwise "get rid of" the Palestinians, I suppose that is possible, but morally repugnant. Not to mention that if it does work, it will probably take a long, long time to reach that point. If violence is incorporated, it probably would take substantially less.

Well the initial idea, which the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected, was for two states to co exist along side each other, even more than that, the Jewish state would have an Arab majority, that would mean that in a few decades the Jewish society would be assimilated into Arab society... so ironically, it is because the Arabs rejected the UN partition plan, Al Nakba happen, and the Arabs lost it all, while the Jews gained even more territory and space.
I have long made my peace with the fact that this struggle will go on for the rest of my life, not only that, every year Im still going on active duty and follow orders that involve directly influencing the lives of Palestinians, its just the way it is, I may not like it, but I want to live as a contributing citizen, and a decent soldier, this is really the reality I know, and no pipe dreams about a regional utopia can change that.

Ah, okay. I admit that the Arab strategy was idiotic, to say the least.

I realize the Negev, for instance, is sparsely populated, with some parts likely devoid of human life. That does not mean that saying Palestine as a whole was a desert (which is implied by the statement) cannot be construed as a complete falsehood. And of course Arabs used the expertise and development: why wouldn't they? Some people think the entire land of Palestine was a desert and devoid of people: you can't rationalize that.

No, im simply saying that its not black and white, and the reality has a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
and just like many Arabs came to enjoy the Jewish progress, my family learned local trades from the Arabs and passed them to fellow Jews.

 

[croak]

Haha.. tell me if you do want to. this could be a very constructive mental torture for both of us!

I have enough mental torture without this on top of it. But I'll see if I'm up to the challenge. I'd probably ask for a week between posts and type it up the day before the end of the week.

You're not feeling me here croak.. Israelis dont ask anyone for a right to exist, it is now a fact in the middle east, and the only way to take that right is by force, which the Arabs tried to and failed. so it really doesnt matter if 200 million Arabs around 6 million Jews think the Jews have no right to exist, the ironic fact is that the Jews are the most prosperous nation in an Arab region. and they do it with impunity.

I know that Israel does not need a right to exist... it just exists. And the fact that Israel will probably not voluntarily cease to exist means that the only way to bring that about is by force. So, clearly, we don't disagree.

Well the initial idea, which the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected, was for two states to co exist along side each other, even more than that, the Jewish state would have an Arab majority, that would mean that in a few decades the Jewish society would be assimilated into Arab society... so ironically, it is because the Arabs rejected the UN partition plan, Al Nakba happen, and the Arabs lost it all, while the Jews gained even more territory and space.
I have long made my peace with the fact that this struggle will go on for the rest of my life, not only that, every year Im still going on active duty and follow orders that involve directly influencing the lives of Palestinians, its just the way it is, I may not like it, but I want to live as a contributing citizen, and a decent soldier, this is really the reality I know, and no dream pipes about a regional utopia can change that.

If I was given a vote, I personally would not have accepted the idea. I would have asked for one secular state. The division into two would have been fraught with problems, I would suspect. I doubt that, as a Jewish state, it would have tolerated an Arab majority: Jews would be encouraged to immigrate, and Arabs to emigrate into the neighbouring state.

I wonder, though, why do you continue to be a soldier? There are other ways you can contribute to society that don't require being involved in fighting, for instance. I suppose, though, that having decent soldiers can't hurt, and if all the decent people decided not to join the military, things would be a lot worse. I assume you don't think of Palestinians as sub-human and treat them as well as you can within the boundaries of your job. Am I right?

Who CAN'T admit that? You've got to have your head in a block of concrete to say otherwise. Might as well be an ant colony against an ant eater.

No, im simply saying that its not black and white, and the reality has a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
and just like many Arabs came to enjoy the Jewish progress, my family learned local trades from the Arabs and passed them to fellow Jews.

I was talking about people who see the whole issue as black and white. I am aware that the white and black on the spectrum of grey are so slim they are practically nonexistent.