About trinity in Christianity

[MJFlores]

Yesterday I spoke with a very nice taxi driver and we came in on religion, He a Muslim and I Buddhist had a very nice chat, so he asked me if I understand the trenity of Christianity, but I was uncertain
My question is, is there anyone who can explain the Trinity for me?

Trinity | Definition, Theology, & History

Trinity, in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be one of the central Christian affirmations about God. It is rooted in the fact that God came to meet Christians in a threefold figure: (1) as Creator, Lord of the history of salvation, Father, and Judge, as revealed in the Old Testament; (2) as the Lord who, in the incarnated figure of Jesus Christ, lived among human beings and was present in their midst as the “Resurrected One”; and (3) as the Holy Spirit, whom they experienced as the helper or intercessor in the power of the new life.

Neither the word “Trinity” nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew Scriptures: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord” (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presumed presence and power of God among them—i.e., the Holy Spirit, whose coming was connected with the celebration of Pentecost. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:13). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.

The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. Initially, both the requirements of monotheism inherited from the Hebrew Scriptures and the implications of the need to interpret the biblical teaching to Greco-Roman religions seemed to demand that the divine in Christ as the Word, or Logos, be interpreted as subordinate to the Supreme Being. An alternative solution was to interpret Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three modes of the self-disclosure of the one God but not as distinct within the being of God itself. The first tendency recognized the distinctness among the three, but at the cost of their equality and hence of their unity (subordinationism). The second came to terms with their unity, but at the cost of their distinctness as “persons” (modalism). The high point of these conflicts was the so-called Arian controversy in the early 4th century. In his interpretation of the idea of God, Arius sought to maintain a formal understanding of the oneness of God. In defense of that oneness, he was obliged to dispute the sameness of essence of the Son and the Holy Spirit with God the Father. It was not until later in the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.

The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since. It is accepted in all of the historic confessions of Christianity, even though the impact of the Enlightenment decreased its importance in some traditions.

 

[blü 2]

Yesterday I spoke with a very nice taxi driver and we came in on religion, He a Muslim and I Buddhist had a very nice chat, so he asked me if I understand the trenity of Christianity, but I was uncertain
My question is, is there anyone who can explain the Trinity for me?

Nothing simpler.

According to the NT, Jesus, a circumcised Jew, repeated denied (with Paul and in all four gospels) that he was God. Instead he specifically states that he's God's envoy, or as Paul and John say, the mediator between God and man (essentially a gnostic view).

By 100 CE, about the time John was written, Christianity was ceasing to be a sect within Judaism and becoming a separate religion. In the ensuing two centuries pressure grew among Christians to promote their hero to god status.

As 400 CE approached, the Trinity doctrine was produced after a long gestation. Its job was to turn Jesus into God, leave God as God, and not have more than one God because then the Jews will say the Christians worship multiple gods like the pagans do.

The Trinity Doctrine, then, said, and continues to say, that there is one God who is three persons, each of the persons being distinct from the others, and called the Father (Yahweh), the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost. Each of the persons is God ─ 100% of God ─ in [his] own right. Therefore Jesus is, and so always was, God all along.

This is incoherent nonsense, of course. Father+Son+Ghost= 100% of God+100% of God+100% of God= 300% of God = 3 gods. The doctrine denies this. Another possibility is that Father+Son+Ghost = ⅓ of God+⅓ of God+⅓ of God = 100% of God, but the doctrine denies this too.

Instead the Trinity churches, certainly the RCC and the Anglo/Piscos, say out loud and proud that the doctrine is a nonsense ─ a good kind of nonsense, a nonsense they believe, but a nonsense nonetheless. The term they actually use is 'a mystery in the strict sense', which means that (and I quote the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, under 'Trinity', with which the online Catholic Encyclopedia has no disagreement) "it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed".

So there you have it. Jesus said repeatedly it wasn't true, it didn't exist till (assuming his historicity at all) he'd been dead for 300 years, and the result is an unashamed incoherency to solve a problem that existed long long ago in the early church.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

 

[exchemist]

Nothing simpler.

According to the NT, Jesus, a circumcised Jew, repeated denied (with Paul and in all four gospels) that he was God. Instead he specifically states that he's God's envoy, or as Paul and John say, the mediator between God and man (essentially a gnostic view).

By 100 CE, about the time John was written, Christianity was ceasing to be a sect within Judaism and becoming a separate religion. In the ensuing two centuries pressure grew among Christians to promote their hero to god status.

As 400 CE approached, the Trinity doctrine was invented. Its job was to turn Jesus into God, leave God as God, and not have more than one God because then the Jews will say the Christians worship multiple gods like the pagans do.

The Trinity Doctrine, then, said, and continues to say, that there is one God who is three persons, each of the persons being distinct from the others, and called the Father (Yahweh), the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost. Each of the persons is God ─ 100% of God ─ in [his] own right. Therefore Jesus is, and so always was, God all along.

This is incoherent nonsense, of course. Father+Son+Ghost= 100% of God+100% of God+100% of God= 300% of God = 3 gods. The doctrine denies this. Another possibility is that Father+Son+Ghost = ⅓ of God+⅓ of God+⅓ of God = 100% of God, but the doctrine denies this too.

Instead the Trinity churches, certainly the RCC and the Anglo/Piscos, say out loud and proud that the doctrine is a nonsense ─ a good kind of nonsense, a nonsense they believe, but a nonsense nonetheless. The term they actually use is 'a mystery in the strict sense', which means that (and I quote the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, under 'Trinity', with which the online Catholic Encyclopedia has no disagreement) "it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed".

So there you have it. Jesus said repeatedly it wasn't true, it didn't exist till (assuming his historicity at all) he'd been dead for 300 years, and the result is an unashamed incoherency to solve a problem that existed long long ago in the early church.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

Interesting point of view. I had never previously heard that Jesus denies being God in all four gospels.

Do you have examples of the bible verses in which he says this?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The trinity was a late introduction into Christianity, adopted by the Catholic church from non-Christian concepts.......it is not from the Bible.

Jehovah is the Almighty God and he has many "sons" that the Bible calls angels. His "firstborn" (figuratively speaking) is his Second in Command, exercising authority over all other creatures....but the holy spirit is the means by which he exercises his power. It is not a person but an impersonal force, sent wherever it is needed to accomplish God's will.

I think you need to be honest about where you are coming from as a Jehovah witness.
Yours is not an accepted christian view, nor does it even comply with the beliefs of a Christian Unitarian, who of course does not believe in the Trinity as such, but does believe in the teachings of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Trinity is a ploy arrived at by the necessity for believing in the the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but not subscribing to Polytheism. The Trinity is an artifice to allow "three to appear as one" so as to comply with Monotheism.
I do not feel this necessity. And I am quite happy to see Jesus as the son of God and a deity, I am not in the least bothered if other people interpret this as polytheism.

 

[blü 2]

Interesting point of view. I had never previously heard that Jesus denies being God in all four gospels.

Do you have examples of the bible verses in which he says this?

I should add that Jesus nowhere claims to be God either. As for denying he's such, I don't say this list is complete, but they're all to the point ─

Paul

1 Corinthians 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth – as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Mark

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

Matthew

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”​

Luke

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”​

John

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

Et cetera

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.​

 

[9-18-1]

Richard Feynman is attributed to have said, "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

I think the Trinity in Christianity is similar, nobody really understands it.

I'll have a go.

Yesterday I spoke with a very nice taxi driver and we came in on religion, He a Muslim and I Buddhist had a very nice chat, so he asked me if I understand the trenity of Christianity, but I was uncertain
My question is, is there anyone who can explain the Trinity for me?

So the Muslims, like the Christians, are confused about the nature of the trinity (which I denote the Triunity as it is not 3, it is 1) for good reason - they aren't taught it properly. I am not saying what is to follow is "proper" but I at least challenge any/all to consider it and contemplate internally without prejudice (if able).

First take the root 'tri' and what comes to mind? Tri(angle). Start with an equilateral triangle. Why is this triangle special? Because (let this triangle be ABC) each angle, side, and vertices are equal. This 'quality' is 100% preserved in/as the Triunity.

Let A be: Will
Let B be: To Bestow
Let C be: To Receive

Now let ABC serve as a relationship basis between two beings: man (+) and woman (-) (for simplicity).

If (-) has a will to receive some thing (perhaps an act) from (+)
and (+) simultaneously has a will to bestow the same thing to (-)
and this configuration is exercised with a wholly shared will
A=B=C

'In the name of the Father' = Will
'and in the Son' = To Bestow
'and in the Holy Spirit' = To Receive

In Kaballah, these three are Crowned Wisdom and Understanding, which renders the equivalent:

'In the name of Crowned Wisdom and Understanding' which are equivalent to Keser, Chokmah, Binah respectively on any kaballistic tree of life.

When two beings share a will (to bestow/receive) this is creation:

Genesis 1:1 (more direct translation)
In the beginning creates Elohim the heavens and the earth.

Elohim are the two polarities:
'el' = masculine (as in sperm moving in a womb)
'im' = feminine (as in womb containing sperm)

And the first two letters of Genesis 1:1 are beis and resh 'bar' which in Aramaic means 'son' or 'first begotten'. Therefor the first begotten or 'son' of god is derived from the coming together of 'el' and 'im' which is when one begins "balancing" the two polarities within ones self, then a mate (of opposite polarity, gender excluded).

In fact the first Hebrew word 'bar-esh-yis' can be read 'son-fire-time' rendering something like "a son [first begotten] of the fire over time... created by/through/the Elohim as-with firey-waters and as-with the running light." etc. to complete the sentence in that context. Genesis 1:1 is also a blueprint for a torus field which has a positive polarity and a negative one, reflecting the bestow/reception natures of conscious creation.

 

[Jumi]

No offense but why is the Muslim position relevant in this thread when our friend Amanaki is inquiring about Christianity?

Just that his friend is a Muslim who talked about the trinity. Me and him were probably raised with evangelical lutheran teachers in a Christian country where people read more bible than think about trinity. The Christians in our countries sometimes haven't even heard of it because it's not taught in schools or taught by priests.

 

[Jim]

@Amanaki Here are two questions to consider that might help you learn something from the Trinity doctrine:

- What does the Bible say about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, that Trinity doctrine tries to say in a different way?

- Why did the church fathers want to say it in a different way?

 

[Spirit of Light]

@Amanaki “The Trinity,” by itself, simply means the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There’s no end to what there is to learn about those, but I think what you’re asking about might be the Trinity doctrine or dogma. One way of saying it is that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons; that each of them is fully God; and yet there is only one God. Is that what you’re asking about? Are you interested in what truth there might be in that?

I wonder if you know that no one who has ever written about the Trinity doctrine, from the beginning, has ever said that it represents any knowledge that is not in the Bible. It’s just a different way of saying what the Bible says. One way to see truth in the Trinity doctrine might be to read what the Bible says, that the Trinity doctrine tries to say in a different way. That’s what I’d like to try doing with you.

In my understanding Jesus is part of God, and the teching Jesus gave is like a seed. or maybe the spirit of the Christian teching. But ofcourse this may be wrong view from my part

 

[Spirit of Light]

@Amanaki Here are two questions to consider that might help you learn something from the Trinity doctrine:

- What does the Bible say about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, that Trinity doctrine tries to say in a different way?

- Why did the church fathers want to say it in a different way?

I would think the answer to this two questions is what the bible say, and what the church are teaching today has become far from each other in some part, because the priests them self does not understand the teaching. In my own experience in talking with priests, they do not cultivate the teaching them self, they only has it as a job. and to me that sound not good

 

[Jumi]

I should add that Jesus nowhere claims to be God either. As for denying he's such, I don't say this list is complete, but they're all to the point ─

Good list.

 

[Jumi]

I would think the answer to this two questions is what the bible say, and what the church are teaching today has become far from each other in some part, because the priests them self does not understand the teaching. In my own experience in talking with priests, they do not cultivate the teaching them self, they only has it as a job. and to me that sound not good

Because the debate about pelagianism, the pelagians and semi-pelagians(later on) lost, they believe that actions do not get people to heaven, but belief. That is why the priests here will say that all you need is a personal relationship with Jesus and all will be accounted for. For the believer it means that's all you will need to do. Cultivating anything then is not necessary, just know that you're a sinner and redeemed by Jesus alone... that's what they usually say.

 

[ChristineM]

Yesterday I spoke with a very nice taxi driver and we came in on religion, He a Muslim and I Buddhist had a very nice chat, so he asked me if I understand the trenity of Christianity, but I was uncertain
My question is, is there anyone who can explain the Trinity for me?

As a christian child an literalist i had great difficulty with the trinity. Father, son and holy ghost. All i could comprehend is that they were one, god was everything. How? Why? I just couldn't get so i am not surprised non christians have problems with it.

Dropping chrisianity if slowly made sense. Christians consider god to be father of everything (so i got that bit right). He was in his son and the ghost refers to his spirit being in all christians.

I though of it as the belief in big daddy, junior and spooky.

 

[MJFlores]

I should add that Jesus nowhere claims to be God either. As for denying he's such, I don't say this list is complete, but they're all to the point ─

Paul

1 Corinthians 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth – as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Mark

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

Matthew

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”​

Luke

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”​

John

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

Et cetera

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.​

That's a lot of verse, man!
A lot of Trinitarians would be scared and poop their pants.
For an unbeliever you really could throw punches
But you really have to feel your punches, as in you have to believe in them.
Otherwise, you just threw but the punches were not felt because you yourself did not feel it.
Because you did not believe it.

1 Corinthians 9:26
Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air.

So there you have it. Jesus said repeatedly it wasn't true, it didn't exist till (assuming his historicity at all) he'd been dead for 300 years, and the result is an unashamed incoherency to solve a problem that existed long long ago in the early church.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

Jesus is not dead.
He is now seated at the right hand of God in heaven.
He died but on the third day, God raised him from the dead.
I'm sure you can find that in the Bible.

 

[blü 2]

Jesus is not dead.
He is now seated at the right hand of God in heaven.

Then I look forward to the recent photo you're about to provide.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yesterday I spoke with a very nice taxi driver and we came in on religion, He a Muslim and I Buddhist had a very nice chat, so he asked me if I understand the trenity of Christianity, but I was uncertain
My question is, is there anyone who can explain the Trinity for me?

I have five fingers on my hand, the fingers can perform independent functions but travel through time and space together, and can exert one will on object. Make a "Vulcan Hand Sign" and you'll see the trinity and the trinitarian sign of Judaism/Christianity, Jesus being pierced through the "hand" (wrist).

 

[MJFlores]

Then I look forward to the recent photo you're about to provide.

I'm sure when the Son of Man comes with God's glory and his angels for the second time.

You will be ready with your cellphone to take a selfie yourself - on the assumption that you will witness that event alive.

Because the bible says, everyone on earth will see him coming and mourn.

But at least you will have a selfie.

 

[blü 2]

I'm sure when the Son of Man comes with God's glory and his angels for the second time.

No, you miss the point ─ I'm serious. You say God and Jesus are real and alive, so show me.

If you can't show me, that's simply more evidence, as if there weren't mountains of it already, that they're imaginary.

 

[Jim]

In my understanding Jesus is part of God, and the teching Jesus gave is like a seed. or maybe the spirit of the Christian teching. But ofcourse this may be wrong view from my part

I’ll go ahead and tell you some of what I learned from thinking about the discussions in the Trinity forum, and searching for answers in the Bible. First, some background. In Bible stories, Jesus is sometimes called the Son, and he calls God “Father.” There’s also someone or something called “the Holy Spirit.” The Son and the Holy Spirit each say and do things that only God can do. The Father and the Son talk to each other, and about each other and the Holy Spirit, as if they are separate persons. There is only one God.

What I learned was that the Trinity doctrine was a result of trying to correct false teachings and/or defending Christianity against allegations of polytheism.

Imagine a history book saying that some pharoah built a pyramid, when it wasn’t actually the pharoah in person who built it, it was his slaves. I think that in the same way, sometimes when the Bible says that God did something, it means that Jesus or the Holy Spirit did it. That explains for me the parts in the stories where Jesus and the Holy Spirit do things that only God can do.

With that in mind, I can see the Trinity doctrine being true, if the words “is,” “distinct,” and “persons,” are being used in a way that they are never used in any other context, “The Son is God” means that sometimes when the Bible says “God,” it means Jesus. “The Holy Spirit Is God” means that sometimes when the Bible says “God,” it means the Holy Spirit. “Distinct persons” means that the Father and the Son talk to each other, and about each other as if they are separate people. The Holy Spirit is not a person, as that word is commonly understood. The word “persons” is just used for lack of a better word, and also sometimes the Holy Spirit does things that we normally think of as what a person does.

(Later) I forgot about the word “essence.” The Trinity doctrine says that God is one in essence. That looks to me like it’s just been added to make the idea that Christians believe in one God look more convincing, to answer the question “How can three persons be one God?” Nobody had any answer to that question. Saying that God is one in essence is a way of pretending to answer that question without actually answering it. The word “essence” is often used that way in philosophy.

 

[MJFlores]

No, you miss the point ─ I'm serious. You say God and Jesus are real and alive, so show me.

If you can't show me, that's simply more evidence, as if there weren't mountains of it already, that they're imaginary.

I am serious also.
Let me show you the verse and your opportunity to have a selfie.

Matthew 24:30-31 New International Version (NIV)
“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

If you are still alive in at least the next 20 years, you might be lucky to witness this.