Was there an historical Moses? Was there an Egyptian captivity at all?
What does modern archaeology tell us about that?
And before anyone can actually see God, God must not be imaginary. But you still haven't produced the photos.
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About trinity in Christianity
- Thread starter Spirit of Light
- Start date
What does modern archaeology tell us about that?
And before anyone can actually see God, God must not be imaginary. But you still haven't produced the photos.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Except for Jacob:
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved (Genesis 32:30).
And Moses:
So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend (Exodus 33:11).
But since there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face (Deuteronomy 34:10).
And Isaiah:
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple (Isaiah 6:1).
Abraham saw him a bunch of times:
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. Genesis 12:7
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him.... Genesis 17:1
And the Lord appeared unto him [Abrham] in the plains of Mamre. Genesis 18:1
And I [God] appeared unto Abraham. Exodus 6:3
And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran Acts 7:2
Isaac:
And the LORD appeared unto him [Isaac], and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of. Genesis 26:2
And the LORD appeared unto him [Isaac] the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not. Genesis 26:24
Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy elders saw God.Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink. Exodus 24:9-11
All of the people of Israel:
For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face. Numbers 14:14
The Lord talked with you [the people of Israel] face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire. Deuteronomy 5:4
Afterwards he was seen upon earth, and conversed with men. Baruch 3:38
And I [God] will bring you [the Israelites] into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.Ezekiel 20:35
I could go on, but I am getting bored. People should ask, who has not seen God? Oddly enough as record keeping improved the sightings ended. If you want you can read more here:
Can God be seen?
Last edited:
Firemorphic
Activist Membrane
If a Muslim decided that Jesus was God-incarnate, he'd be half-way there to converting to Christianity.
Like a Christain deciding that Jesus wasn't valid prophet (and finding error in the 'god-incarnate' idea) but still clinging onto the Torah, he'd be almost a Jew.
Your post doesn't seem to make any points, other than that you want to build a wall between yourself and Muslims.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Archeology don't know much about that.
That is when people knell and dig dirt and find stuff?
But whatever it is - I hope this would answer your questions:
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
The Merneptah Stele—also known as the Israel Stele or the Victory Stele of Merneptah—is an inscription by the ancient Egyptian Pharaoh Merneptah (reign: 1213 to 1203 BC) discovered by Flinders Petrie in 1896 at Thebes, and now housed in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.[1][2]
The text is largely an account of Merneptah's victory over the Libyans and their allies, but the last 3 of the 28 lines deal with a separate campaign in Canaan, then part of Egypt's imperial possessions. The stele is sometimes referred to as the "Israel Stela" because a majority of scholars translate a set of hieroglyphs in line 27 as "Israel." Alternative translations have been advanced but are not widely accepted.[3]
The stela represents the earliest textual reference to Israel and the only reference from ancient Egypt.[4] It is one of four known inscriptions, from the Iron Age, that date to the time of and mention ancient Israel, under this name, the others being the Mesha Stele, the Tel Dan Stele, and the Kurkh Monolith.[5][6][7] As a result, some consider the stele to be Flinders Petrie's most famous discovery,[8] an opinion with which Petrie himself concurred.[9]
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
Is that rock you are looking for?
Well, I'm not too much on those rocks unless it is the Ten Commandments written by Lord God Almighty himself.
Augustus
…
Jesus was seen as God from the 1st C, it certainly didn't take 3 centuries before this idea took root. It is not quite so clear when it became a trinity rather than a binity though, but this was likely sometime in the 2nd C.
Obviously there were a range of views in different communities, but it is false to say the idea 'didn't exist' until he'd been dead for 300 years. In the 4th C they were having very technical Christological disputes involving people over a huge geographic area. This would be somewhat strange if the idea had only been 'invented' in the 4th C.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Sometimes, when you have to check where the Bible is printed.
If it is printed in China - there will be some grammatical and typo errors.
Just sampled one of your presentation:
Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy elders saw God.Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink. Exodus 24:9-11
FACT CHECKED:
Exodus 24:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
It is futile to continue with the rest of the verses because Pinocchio here will grow its nose and kill somebody with it.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It appears that you did not understand the verse that you quoted and linked since it supported my claim. And watch it with the "Pinocchio" claims. Calling someone else a liar, especially when you prove that they are being honest, is a violation of the TOS here. That verse says that they saw God. Do you have another interpretation? How do you justify it?Sometimes, when you have to check where the Bible is printed.
If it is printed in China - there will be some grammatical and typo errors.
Just sampled one of your presentation:
Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy elders saw God.Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink. Exodus 24:9-11
FACT CHECKED:
Exodus 24:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
View attachment 27882
It is futile to continue with the rest of the verses because Pinocchio here will grow its nose and kill somebody with it.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Whenever someone ask for a stone evidence
And I show him this
They vanish
as if they saw a ghost
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
Seem like this stone is somethin' else huh?
Oh well, sometimes people you know gets scared of stones.
Perhaps I was unclear. By 'Trinity' I meant the Trinity of the 4th cent Trinity doctrine, the one still in official use (to which I attributed a 'long gestation').
So I agree that other versions of Jesus-as-God and Father-Son-Ghost had been proposed, but none of them made it into doctrine, because they didn't satisfy the goals of the movement in the first place ─ Jesus as God, God as God and only one God, all at once.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
I understand you and I see God very differently
What some call God or Truth i see in everything around us also here in the physical world. Not only as a being but as truth.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
How do you think that supports a historic Moses? It only indicates that Israel may have existed at around 1,200 BCE. There is no indication that Moses existed at all in that stele.Whenever someone ask for a stone evidence
And I show him this
They vanish
as if they saw a ghost
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
Seem like this stone is somethin' else huh?
Oh well, sometimes people you know gets scared of stones.
The Merneptah Stele confirms what archaeology already knew, that Egypt had occupied and ruled over much of Canaan in the 2nd millennium BCE. So what?
And still no photo? You have no way of showing that God is not imaginary?
Well don't worry, no one else has either.
Guess why.
Would not that be God as metaphor?I understand you and I see God very differently
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
No
because Truth is not a metaphor.Seeing nature/existance for what is really is is no metaphor
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
When was the first photograph taken?
1820's?
When was the last visit of Christ?
over two thousand years?
When he returns you are going to have a photo-op.
If you are still breathing on his second advent.
The absence of a photograph does not mean
The person does not exist
Do you have a photograph of Christopher Columbus?
How about Ferdinand Magellan? Qin Shi Huang? Emperor Jimmu?
Don't worry, no one else has either.
The Fourth Lateran Council (1215) declared: ‘We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature.’ (Constitutions: 1. Confession of faith).
The Council of Basel (1431-45 A.D.) decreed: ‘First, then, the holy Roman church, founded on the words of our Lord and Saviour, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; one in essence, three in persons……………… These three persons are one God not three gods, because there is one substance of the three, one essence, one nature, one Godhead, one immensity, one eternity……. Therefore it condemns, reproves, anathematizes and declares to be outside the body of Christ, which is the church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views. Hence it condemns Sabellius, who confused the persons and altogether removed their real distinction. It condemns the Arians, the Eunomians and the Macedonians who say that only the Father is true God and place the Son and the holy Spirit in the order of creatures. It also condemns any others who make degrees or inequalities in the Trinity.’ (Session 114).
The third-century church father Tertullian writes: ‘Father and Son and Spirit are three, however, not in status but in rank, not in substance but in form, not in power but in appearance; they are, however, of one substance and of one status and of one power, because God is one, from whom these ranks and forms and appearances are designated in name as Father and Son and Holy Spirit.’ (Adversus Praxean; Chapter 2).
Trinitarians believe that within the Godhead (the ‘one Substance’) the Father is entirely within the Son and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Son is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Son. In other words, the three Persons form a single unity, indivisible and permanent. They are not three persons standing side by side, so to speak.
In his ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’ Ludwig Ott cites the following ‘Trinitarian Formulae’ (by which he means ‘scriptural proofs’:
‘And when Jesus had been baptised he at once came up from the water, and suddenly the heavens opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming down on him. And suddenly there was a voice from heaven, “This is my Son, the Beloved; my favour rests on him.”' (Matthew 3:16-17. See also Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Matt 17:5; 2 Peter 1:17).
‘Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’ (Matthew 28:19).
‘The angel answered, “'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.”’ (Luke 1:35).
‘Jesus said: “I am the Way; I am Truth and Life. No one can come to the Father except through me.”’ (John 14:6).
‘Peter, apostle of Jesus Christ, to all those living as aliens in the Dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen, in the foresight of God the Father, to be made holy by the Spirit, obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.’ (1 Peter 1:1-2).
‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.’ (2 Cor 13:13).
‘There is one Body, one Spirit, just as one hope is the goal of your calling by God. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all, over all, through all and within all.’ (Ephesians 4:4-6).
To which may be added: ‘I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.’ (John 16:28. See also John 16:17).
Ott makes no mention of this:
‘For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.’ (1 John 5: 7-8).
The words shown in bold are known as the ‘Comma Ioanneum’.
Anthony and Richard Hanson write: ‘It (the ‘Comma Ioanneum’) was added by some enterprising person or persons in the ancient Church who felt that the New Testament was sadly deficient in direct witness to the kind of doctrine of the Trinity which he favoured and who determined to remedy that defect . . . It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament’. (‘Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith; page 171).
The ‘Comma Ioanneum’ is spurious, and yet for centuries the Church insisted it be included in 1 John 5; on the grounds that it had become official Church teaching.
In 1927, the Holy Office (Guardian of Catholic orthodoxy; and once named the ‘Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition’) declared: ‘After careful examination of the whole circumstances that its genuineness could be denied’ (Ludwig Ott: ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’, page 56).
This is why my Bible (the Jerusalem Bible - a Catholic version) reads: ‘So there are three witnesses, the Spirit, water and blood; and the three of them coincide.’ By the way, another Catholic Bible – the Douay Rheims – still contains the ‘Comma’.
The Council of Basel (1431-45 A.D.) decreed: ‘First, then, the holy Roman church, founded on the words of our Lord and Saviour, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; one in essence, three in persons……………… These three persons are one God not three gods, because there is one substance of the three, one essence, one nature, one Godhead, one immensity, one eternity……. Therefore it condemns, reproves, anathematizes and declares to be outside the body of Christ, which is the church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views. Hence it condemns Sabellius, who confused the persons and altogether removed their real distinction. It condemns the Arians, the Eunomians and the Macedonians who say that only the Father is true God and place the Son and the holy Spirit in the order of creatures. It also condemns any others who make degrees or inequalities in the Trinity.’ (Session 114).
The third-century church father Tertullian writes: ‘Father and Son and Spirit are three, however, not in status but in rank, not in substance but in form, not in power but in appearance; they are, however, of one substance and of one status and of one power, because God is one, from whom these ranks and forms and appearances are designated in name as Father and Son and Holy Spirit.’ (Adversus Praxean; Chapter 2).
Trinitarians believe that within the Godhead (the ‘one Substance’) the Father is entirely within the Son and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Son is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Son. In other words, the three Persons form a single unity, indivisible and permanent. They are not three persons standing side by side, so to speak.
In his ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’ Ludwig Ott cites the following ‘Trinitarian Formulae’ (by which he means ‘scriptural proofs’:
‘And when Jesus had been baptised he at once came up from the water, and suddenly the heavens opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming down on him. And suddenly there was a voice from heaven, “This is my Son, the Beloved; my favour rests on him.”' (Matthew 3:16-17. See also Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Matt 17:5; 2 Peter 1:17).
‘Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’ (Matthew 28:19).
‘The angel answered, “'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.”’ (Luke 1:35).
‘Jesus said: “I am the Way; I am Truth and Life. No one can come to the Father except through me.”’ (John 14:6).
‘Peter, apostle of Jesus Christ, to all those living as aliens in the Dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen, in the foresight of God the Father, to be made holy by the Spirit, obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.’ (1 Peter 1:1-2).
‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.’ (2 Cor 13:13).
‘There is one Body, one Spirit, just as one hope is the goal of your calling by God. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all, over all, through all and within all.’ (Ephesians 4:4-6).
To which may be added: ‘I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.’ (John 16:28. See also John 16:17).
Ott makes no mention of this:
‘For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.’ (1 John 5: 7-8).
The words shown in bold are known as the ‘Comma Ioanneum’.
Anthony and Richard Hanson write: ‘It (the ‘Comma Ioanneum’) was added by some enterprising person or persons in the ancient Church who felt that the New Testament was sadly deficient in direct witness to the kind of doctrine of the Trinity which he favoured and who determined to remedy that defect . . . It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament’. (‘Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith; page 171).
The ‘Comma Ioanneum’ is spurious, and yet for centuries the Church insisted it be included in 1 John 5; on the grounds that it had become official Church teaching.
In 1927, the Holy Office (Guardian of Catholic orthodoxy; and once named the ‘Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition’) declared: ‘After careful examination of the whole circumstances that its genuineness could be denied’ (Ludwig Ott: ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’, page 56).
This is why my Bible (the Jerusalem Bible - a Catholic version) reads: ‘So there are three witnesses, the Spirit, water and blood; and the three of them coincide.’ By the way, another Catholic Bible – the Douay Rheims – still contains the ‘Comma’.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Really? Why would anyone be afraid of that?
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Maybe they just saw and read about it.
A tangible piece of evidence that they were not expecting.
The smoking gun, sort of.
Truth is not a metaphor, agreed. I'd say that a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality.No
Seeing nature/existance for what is really is is no metaphor
And objective reality is the world external to the self / nature / the realm of the physical sciences.
How did you define truth?