Abrahamic faiths: Free will and predestination

[idav]

There are no possible outcomes, if God is all knowing then he will know which outcome we choose. If God introduces limitations on his own knowledge, then that means he can introduce limitations on himself, which means God was never omniscient to begin with.

Also this doesn't take into account the omnipotence factor. An omnipotent God which creates a universe, based on laws, has created a deterministic universe. Everything will happen just the way planned by the laws guided by God. There are no other outcomes nor choices, just one result. If God removes his knowledge after creating you as a deterministic robot to judge your 'choices', then that God is being rather unfair, since you had no choice to begin with in the first place.

Also if an omnipotent God introduces randomness into the equation via quantum mechanics or whatever to illustrate free will, that nullifies his omniscience once again and suggests there are things outside Gods knowledge and thus outside of God.

God allowing a creature godike freewill power, that does not take away from omnipotence. How does knowing a crime being committed across the world make a person responsible?

The many worlds interpretation suggests god wouldn't need to know which path is chosen because all the paths end up existing.

 

[MD]

God allowing a creature godike freewill power, that does not take away from omnipotence. How does knowing a crime being committed across the world make a person responsible?

The many worlds interpretation suggests god wouldn't need to know which path is chosen because all the paths end up existing.

You're conflating things. The person did not create the world, God did. Knowing that you created all the conditions for the crime to take place, means that everything is deterministic. There can be no judgement or mercy in such a scenario.

In a many worlds scenario it still negates the concept of free will. Each world is deterministic, and each person does exactly as God planned things to be.

 

[MD]

No bad at all. I think your assumption is very reasonable.

However, suppose that what one does is by means of a free will, and that what god sees you doing in the future are simply those things freely chosen at that time: He sees you freely choosing A rather than B in the future. Would his seeing you do this compel you to do it at that time? My thoughts are that it would not. Hence, free will remains intact

That said, I still regard free will as a bankrupt notion.

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I believe free will is true, but I don't believe in an omnipotent God. There are no choices in a deterministic universe created by God. His vision is useless, determinism means things are set in place and based on deterministic actions the outcome will take place. Probabilities on outcomes are done by humans, because we are not omnipotent.

 

[MD]

I would like to invite @Tumah here, as his wisdom and knowledge are greatly appreciated

 

[Skwim]

I believe free will is true, but I don't believe in an omnipotent God. There are no choices in a deterministic universe created by God. His vision is useless, determinism means things are set in place and based on deterministic actions the outcome will take place. Probabilities on outcomes are done by humans, because we are not omnipotent.

How about an omniscient god, which is what I was referring to?

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[MD]

How about an omniscient god, which is what I was referring to?

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An omniscient God would know everything, thus would know what outcome the person will pick. While an omniscient God did not create the universe, the laws of the universe which guided a person towards an outcome would still be preserved. Thus judgement cannot be dished out, as this person is still a slave to the mechanisms of the universe which created him. Heaven and hell would still be immoral with an Omniscient only God, since the universe is still deterministic to them.

Now if you were to say quantum mechanics produces probabilities that makes the person choose one outcome over a series of many outcomes, then free will is maintained. However to pass judgement on this outcome, such a god cannot be omniscient as it cannot know what the person will pick and can truly judge based on that persons choice.

 

[MD]

@Rival and @RabbiO your input would be greatly appreciated here as well

 

[Milton Platt]

Knowing isn't the same thing as making something happen. How I understand it is that God simply knows all possible outcomes, but it's up to us to actually make something happen. So God may not even know what specific choice we may make. Whether He does or not, is irrelevant like I said, because it's us making the choice in the first place. God delegated a lot of His power and authority to His creations. So to say He's all-powerful or all-knowing is mostly saying that He is such in potential, but not necessarily in actual action. He works with us and we add to His creation. He is like a Conductor of a cosmic choir or symphony that is always unfinished.

So in your opinion, he has no foreknowledge at all??? And he has no control over his creation???

 

[idav]

As I understand the argument of free will vs determinism is that you cannot both have chosen and have that path be a certainty before you were created. The unavoidable dilemma being that if God knew what you were going to do before he created you, you could not choose to do otherwise, and thus your path and 'choices' are pre-determined. Not your own.

God knowing your destination doesn't mean God had determined the path. For example if god knew I would go to the store does that mean god forced me to go to the store, would god really care or just leave such trivialities for us humans to decide? Or is god some fate watcher that will steer me to the store no matter how I might fight?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

God knowing your destination doesn't mean God had determined the path. For example if god knew I would go to the store does that mean god forced me to go to the store, would god really care or just leave such trivialities for us humans to decide? Or is god some fate watcher that will steer me to the store no matter how I might fight?

If God knew you were going to the store before you were born, that you going to the store was a certainty, and that path was created via that knowledge before you began walking it, in what sense did you choose it? You couldn't have not done it.

 

[idav]

If God knew you were going to the store before you were born, that you going to the store was a certainty, and that path was created via that knowledge before you began walking it, in what sense did you choose it? You couldn't have not done it.

Forknowledge shouldn't be confused with will power. What your statement assumes is that god only knows by making it happen which isn't necessarily the case. Like saying god only knows the domino affect because he set the dominos that way, rather than God just knowing the outcome via cause and effect data. When a being is all powerful we can't really assume what the being wills one way or another. Can we assume god does all contradictory things just cause it can? Wouldn't god be able to choose whether to exerpt its power or allow their own way. Just saying it can go either way depending if god chooses to control every hair on a mammals head.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Forknowledge shouldn't be confused with will power. What your statement assumes is that god only knows by making it happen which isn't necessarily the case. Like saying god only knows the domino affect because he set the dominos that way, rather than God just knowing the outcome via cause and effect data. When a being is all powerful we can't really assume what the being wills one way or another. Can we assume god does all contradictory things just cause it can? Wouldn't god be able to choose whether to exerpt its power or allow their own way. Just saying it can go either way depending if god chooses to control every hair on a mammals head.

Knowledge is power. The problem of free will is that you can't choose against what is already been determined to be true before you were born. Thus the 'choice' is merely illusionary.
Ultimate truth determined by creator prior to creation = predestination.

 

[idav]

Knowledge is power. The problem of free will is that you can't choose against what is already been determined to be true before you were born. Thus the 'choice' is merely illusionary.
Ultimate truth determined by creator prior to creation = predestination.

Maybe if god isn't rolling quantum dice. Knowledge being power isn't the same as exerting power over the knowledge.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Maybe if god isn't rolling quantum dice. Knowledge being power isn't the same as exerting power over the knowledge.

I don't see it that way. Rather like someone saying 'did you steal from the cookie jar' and receiving the answer 'maybe 'I'm am not what you think 'I' am.'
The idea of predetermination, to me, negates the idea of free will. Just as surely as fate negates chance.

 

[idav]

I don't see it that way. Rather like someone saying 'did you steal from the cookie jar' and receiving the answer 'maybe 'I'm am not what you think 'I' am.'
The idea of predetermination, to me, negates the idea of free will. Just as surely as fate negates chance.

Well I would agree but it would negate gods free will too, God being predetermined is contradictory to me.

 

[Skwim]

Well I would agree but it would negate gods free will too, God being predetermined is contradictory to me.

Yup. Although I don't know how God being predetermined is contradictory to you, he is just like everyone else in regard to free will. He don't got it either.

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[idav]

Yup. Although I don't know how God being predetermined is contradictory to you, he is just like everyone else in regard to free will. He don't got it either.

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That doesn't really sound like all powerful, besides god would be able to do all contradictory things in many worlds if it really is that powerful. Our choices would then also be in many worlds options.

 

[Skwim]

That doesn't really sound like all powerful,

If by "all powerful" you mean the ability to do the illogical, I have to agree.

besides god would be able to do all contradictory things in many worlds if it really is that powerful.

Wasn't aware of that, but okay.

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[idav]

If by "all powerful" you mean the ability to do the illogical, I have to agree.


Wasn't aware of that, but okay.

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Doesn't that tie to the suggestion that god is all powerful and can do contradictory things? God would be able to make very choice an actuality, giving a deterministic and free will compatibility.

 

[Skwim]

Doesn't that tie to the suggestion that god is all powerful and can do contradictory things? God would be able to make very choice an actuality, giving a deterministic and free will compatibility.

As an illogical state of being it would, making god an illogical creature. Which is fine by me.

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