Abrahamic faiths: Free will and predestination

[Willamena]

Maybe if god isn't rolling quantum dice. Knowledge being power isn't the same as exerting power over the knowledge.

It is not God exerting power over knowledge, but truth doing so.

To some people, knowledge means being informed of truth. So if God knows your future (meaning that that future is the truth) then it cannot happen any other way (i.e. there is no choice involved).

 

[Brickjectivity]

People are like clay jars and are mortal. You put different things into different jars, defining what kind of jar you have. Everybody wants to hold gold. Nobody wants to be the chamber pot. They want to be born with money and a fast track to an easy life. Destiny is referring to what you are and what you are destined to be, its your jar-type.

Free will has nothing to do with that. Free will means that you do not need a smart moral person or a god to think for you, assuming you are an adult with normal abilities and some knowledge.

God knows everything that will happen, and has created everything in sequence as to what will happen. Our wills are guided by our brains, and our brains exist in a deterministic universe, in the sequence God created.

In my experience people who believe that God knows everything that will happen do not usually believe in a deterministic universe. Anyway, prescience is not a trait of God. Some people say that it is, but they are mistakenly reading passages in the Bible about the Lord's ability to bring things to pass. It is his boast that he can say something and make it happen and that nobody can stop it. That's not prescience, that's persistence.

 

[idav]

It is not God exerting power over knowledge, but truth doing so.

To some people, knowledge means being informed of truth. So if God knows your future (meaning that that future is the truth) then it cannot happen any other way (i.e. there is no choice involved).

There is a difference between finding the truth and creating it.

 

[Willamena]

There is a difference between finding the truth and creating it.

Which is "knowing"?

 

[idav]

Which is "knowing"?

I suppose so, the word truth would be rather meaningless with omniscience.

 

[Willamena]

I suppose so, the word truth would be rather meaningless with omniscience.

How so?

 

[idav]

How so?

Omniscience doesn't require distinguishing fact from fiction.

 

[Willamena]

Omniscience doesn't require distinguishing fact from fiction.

Both fact and fiction are knowable.

 

[idav]

Both fact and fiction are knowable.

Oh you mean like knowing a fictional story? I mean knowing something is a lie, as in not a fact.

 

[Willamena]

Oh you mean like knowing a fictional story? I mean knowing something is a lie, as in not a fact.

Like knowing the plot of Star Wars.

 

[idav]

Like knowing the plot of Star Wars.

That would be included in fact knowing.

 

[Tumah]

I would like to invite @Tumah here, as his wisdom and knowledge are greatly appreciated

Thanks. Sorry for the delayed response, its been a bit busy here.

I think, from a Jewish perspective the problem is a bit more severe than is discussed here. We understand that G-d's Oneness is absolute and what that means is that there's no difference between G-d's "Self" or "Being" and G-d's "Wisdom" or "Knowledge. G-d only has one aspect - Godly. That Godliness when it effects our dimension appears to manifests in various ways including as "G-d's Knowledge (omniscience)", "G-d's power (omnipotence)", etc. But in reality the difference is a result of our experiential perception of G-d's Godliness not a difference in what G-d is actually manifesting because the only thing He manifests is Himself. So for instance we perceive G-d's Godliness as omniscience when He reveals the future to a prophet. And we perceive G-d's Godliness as omnipotence when He does the Ten Plagues. But objectively, all G-d did was be G-d. The result of G-d being G-d as it appears in our dimension manifests on different levels, because we exist on different level (ie. thoughts, body, etc.) not because He does. So the reality is that G-d and His Knowledge is really the same exact thing and we're just using different words to explain the same thing being manifest in different circumstances.

The reason why I point this out is because I think, the same issue which is present on the conceptual level of G-d's Knowledge (omniscience)precluding our ability to have free-will (G-d's Knowledge being absolute), should also be present in the existential level in that G-d's existence should preclude our ability to exist (G-d's Being is absolute). Objectively (by that I mean, outside our experience) its really the same absolute quality of Godliness but when that quality translates into our dimension it creates two seemingly separate paradoxes to our selves: one in our ability to choose and one in our ability to exist as independent entities.

My understanding of how we deal with that is by creating the paradox right at the very beginning of creation. Jewish sources explain that the first step in creation was (and I choose my words carefully here) G-d causing the restriction of the perception/experience of the impact of His Godliness to outside a sphere of "non-influence" within which the creation can then become possible. This is an area where G-d remains Godly but it becomes possible to perceive/experience something that is not Him being Him. There's an argument in Jewish sources about whether that means we are an illusion or not, but the result is that to the same degree that we exist, free-will also exists.

 

[Glaurung]

If God is omnipotent, then God created everything. If God is omniscient, then God knows everything that will happen. Thus the universe is deterministic and without free will.

Unless God's foreknowledge in regards to our free will is consequential rather than antecedent. To paraphrase a quote from the Matrix: "You've already made the choice, you're here to understand why you've made it."

The choices I will make in the future are no less mine just because I don't have temporal access to them as of yet. That God may do doesn't in my mind take away from my responsibility concerning those choices when the time shall come to make them.