Abrahamic God = Brahman???

[Unveiled Artist]

So are you saying that Abrahamics believe that creation is a second god?

Abrahamics believe that creation is created by god. So, creation is second to the creator. Similar to a mother and her child. If someone asked a question of the family, they'd talk with the parents before the child.

 

[Vinayaka]

'Creation' is such a poor translation.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

'Creation' is such a poor translation.

Creation means manifest and conditioned (time and space), something which undergoes relation to a multiplicity wherein things rely on other things.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Abrahamics believe that creation is created by god.

Yes, and that Creation is nothing like God.

We are creation, we are beings/entities that talk and think, even if we where celestial beings we would still be creation. A created thing is not God. A being or entity is not God.
God is nothing like Creation, God is the source of Creation, the ground of all reality.
This is fundamentals to Abrahamic theology.

If God was a being/entity, why would there be Angels? Angels deliver revelation and theophanize to humans.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is the Abrahamic God an anthropomorphic personification of the Hinduism's Brahman?

As I understand it, Brahman doesn't have human qualities, but the Abrahamic God has some of the same qualities as Brahman.

So maybe he is?

Here's something you may be interested in.
Brahma Worship

 

[Aupmanyav]

As Imam Ali also says:
"The perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute"

Is he not merciful and bountiful? That is an attribute.
You can have a Brahman without attributes only in Hinduism.
"Neti-neti" (Not this, not that).

 

[Jainarayan]

You couldn't have said something as antithetical to the truth.

Your opinion.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Is he not merciful and bountiful? That is an attribute.
You can have a Brahman without attributes only in Hinduism.
"Neti-neti" (Not this, not that).

As the Following Hadith says:

Hisham ibn al-Hakam who has said the following:
“Once I asked Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, recipient of divine supreme covenant, about the names of Allah and about the root or derivative forms of those names, ‘What is the root word for the word Allah?’
The Imam replied, ‘The word Allah is derived from the word ’aliha and ‘Ilah (Lord), which requires Ma’luh (servant). Note that names are something other than that to which they apply. O Hisham, whoever worships the name without the fact for which the name stands he has denied the existence of Allah and has not worshipped anything. Whoever worships the name and the meaning for which the name stands he has worshipped two things. Whoever worships the meaning without the name he is a monotheist. Did you understand it, O Hisham?’
Hisham then asked, ‘Please explain further.’
The Imam (al-Sadiq) then said, ‘Allah has ninety-nine names. If names were the same thing for which they stand every one of them would be a Lord. However, Allah is a meaning for which these names stand and they all are something other than Him. O Hisham, bread is the name for a certain kind of food, water is the name for a certain kind of drink, cloth is the name for a certain kind of garment and fire is the name for a thing that burns. Did you understand, O Hisham, in a manner of understanding that would help you to defend our cause against our enemies and those who worship things other than Allah?’
I said, ‘Yes, I have gained such understanding.’
The Imam then said, ‘May Allah grant you success in it and keep you steadfast (in Iman).’

Names and attributes are relative to creation, not God.

Al-Husayn ibn Ahmad ibn Idris (RA) said, on the authority of his father, on the authority of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Jabbar, on the authority of Safwan ibn Yahya that I enquired from Imam al-Kazim (AS): “Inform me about the Will. Is it a part of Allah or is it of the Creation?
Hence, he (AS) answered "The will is part of the created conscience, and it manifest itself in action. As for Will of Allah, the Mighty and High, then it is His Making [ihdath] and none other than that because He does not reflect, does not imagine, and does not think. These attributes cannot be applied to Him as they are attributes of creation. Thus, Allah’s Will is action and nothing else. He says to it: “Be and it is,” without a word or speech expressed by tongue, or by imagination or by thought. His Will is expressed without form in the same way that He is without form."

True Abrahamic Monotheism is strictly Apophatic and anti-Anthropomorphic.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Your opinion.

Abrahamic God = Brahman???

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, and that Creation is nothing like God.

We are creation, we are beings/entities that talk and think, even if we where celestial beings we would still be creation. A created thing is not God. A being or entity is not God.
God is nothing like Creation, God is the source of Creation, the ground of all reality.
This is fundamentals to Abrahamic theology.

If God was a being/entity, why would there be Angels? Angels deliver revelation and theophanize to humans.

I don't know. All you've said sounds "out there" and foreign to me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Even a collection of "everything in the whole world" would ultimately perish; in that sense, it is unreal. Only the imperishable brahman is sat, the really real, the essential being of the endless process we call reality.

The imperishable is what Eminates from God, ..

Again, you make Brahman into God who chooses an uneducated person (like Mohammad, Trailblazer said, must be the truth), the 19th Century Iranian preacher to convey his message to the world. Brahman is certainly does not do that. You are attributing things and actions of your belief / choice / imagination to Brahman. Now, who says that "everything in the whole world is perishable", and then you yourself go on to declare that the imperishable Brahman is sat (truth). Everything emanates from Brahman, there is nothing else to emanate from (and if you can face the truth, even shi it). Messenger are no different. Let us be clinical. You are being totally confused.

such fun

Very true.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

I don't know. All you've said sounds "out there" and foreign to me.

As as what many of you have said about the God of Abraham on this thread, completely foreign and alien to me as well, and slightly offensive too (calling God a 'entity, being' et al )

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Your opinion.

Some more Hadith from the Ahl al-Bayt on the matter:

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hisham ibn Salim from Muhammad ibn Muslim who has said the following. “I heard Imam al-Baqir (a.s.) saying, ‘Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, existed when nothing else existed. He eternally knows whatever comes into being. His knowledge of things before their coming into existence and afterwards is exactly the same.’”

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn Khalid al-Tayalisi from Safwan ibn Yahya from ibn Maskan from abu Basir who has said the following. “I heard Imam al-Sadiq (a.s.) saying, ‘The Exalted, the Glorious, Allah, our Lord, is Eternal. Knowledge is His self even if there is nothing to be known. Hearing is His self even if there is nothing to be heard. Seeing is His-self even when there is nothing to be seen. Power is His self even if there is nothing to feel the power. When He brought things into existence the perceptible objects became the objects of His knowledge, His hearing applied to audible objects, His seeing to visible objects and His power to the objects that feel power.’”
Abu Basir adds; “I further asked, ‘Has Allah always been in motion?”
Imam Sadiq replied, “Allah is High Exalted above that. Motion is an attribute that is created through action.” I asked, “Did Allah always have the ability to speak?” He replied, “ Speech is a created attribute and not an eternal one. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, existed when there was nothing able to speak.”


Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa ibn ‘Ubayd from Hammad from Hariz from Muhammad ibn Muslim from Imam al-Baqir (a.s.) who has said the following about being eternal. “He, Allah, is One, the Self-sufficient. He is One and only One without any multiplicity in different meaning.”
The narrator said that I further inquired, “May Allah take my soul in your service, certain people in Iraq think, that Allah hears with something different from what He sees with, and He sees with something different from what He hears with.”
The Imam replied, “They have said a lie and have become atheists for considering Allah similar to other things. Allah, the Most High, indeed is above all things. He is All-hearing and All-seeing. He hears with what He sees, and sees with what He hears.”
The narrator has said that he further asked, “Those people are also of the opinion that Allah is All-seeing in the same sense and in the same way as they perceive.”
The Imam said, “Allah is High Exalted above all such things. Only such things are perceived, which has the attributes of created things. Allah is not created.”


Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Walid (RA) said: Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Saffar said: Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid said, on the authority of some of our scholars that Imam al-Rida (AS) was passing by a grave from the graves of his Household, so he placed his hand on the grave and said:
"O my God! Your Omnipotence is apparent. However, since You are Shapeless, people are ignorant of You. They try to measure You in a vain efforts to recognize You. However, any measurement of You is other than you. O my Lord! I disassociate myself from those who compare You with Your creation. Nothing is similar to You. My Lord! They cannot comprehend You. If they wanted to recognize You, Your blessings are the best proof for You. O my God! It is sufficient for them to ponder on Your Creation, and to refrain from exploring Your Nature. However, they consider You are your Creation as one and the same. That is why they fail to truly recognize You and consider Your Signs as their Lord and have described you as such. My Lord! You are far above the descriptions of the anthropomorphist."

 

[Aupmanyav]

Abrahamics: "We believe in a transcendent ultimate reality without attributes, which is omnipresent"
Dharmics: "We believe in a transcendent ultimate reality without attributes, which is omnipresent".

Omnipresence will be an attribute. Yes, I believe do that and a few other things - unchangeability, eternality, being totally unattached, etc.
That is not what all Dharmics believe. Most Hindus believe in thousands of Gods and Goddesses.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

That is not what all Dharmics believe. Most believe in thousands of Gods and Goddesses.

Not in place of the belief of the transcendent ultimate reality (without attributes) of Brahman, and not even taken literally a lot of the time (many Hindus don't believe in the literal existence of any particular deity but see them as symbols, aka Bhakti itself), and still if taken as a literal concept, taken as far lesser than Brahman.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

As found in much of Hindu yogic tradition, self-identification with the various deities is common place, even among Vaishavites who still see self-identification with Krishna/Vishnu as being part of the path to realizing Brahman, despite that Vaishnavism is dualistic.
The majority of Shaivites by comparison are firm Monists (like Shia Muslims and Sufis), who take Shiva to be everything, and not a deity.

 

[Jainarayan]

Some more Hadith from the Ahl al-Bayt on the matter:

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hisham ibn Salim from Muhammad ibn Muslim who has said the following. “I heard Imam al-Baqir (a.s.) saying, ‘Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, existed when nothing else existed. He eternally knows whatever comes into being. His knowledge of things before their coming into existence and afterwards is exactly the same.’”

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn Khalid al-Tayalisi from Safwan ibn Yahya from ibn Maskan from abu Basir who has said the following. “I heard Imam al-Sadiq (a.s.) saying, ‘The Exalted, the Glorious, Allah, our Lord, is Eternal. Knowledge is His self even if there is nothing to be known. Hearing is His self even if there is nothing to be heard. Seeing is His-self even when there is nothing to be seen. Power is His self even if there is nothing to feel the power. When He brought things into existence the perceptible objects became the objects of His knowledge, His hearing applied to audible objects, His seeing to visible objects and His power to the objects that feel power.’”
Abu Basir adds; “I further asked, ‘Has Allah always been in motion?”
Imam Sadiq replied, “Allah is High Exalted above that. Motion is an attribute that is created through action.” I asked, “Did Allah always have the ability to speak?” He replied, “ Speech is a created attribute and not an eternal one. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, existed when there was nothing able to speak.”


Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa ibn ‘Ubayd from Hammad from Hariz from Muhammad ibn Muslim from Imam al-Baqir (a.s.) who has said the following about being eternal. “He, Allah, is One, the Self-sufficient. He is One and only One without any multiplicity in different meaning.”
The narrator said that I further inquired, “May Allah take my soul in your service, certain people in Iraq think, that Allah hears with something different from what He sees with, and He sees with something different from what He hears with.”
The Imam replied, “They have said a lie and have become atheists for considering Allah similar to other things. Allah, the Most High, indeed is above all things. He is All-hearing and All-seeing. He hears with what He sees, and sees with what He hears.”
The narrator has said that he further asked, “Those people are also of the opinion that Allah is All-seeing in the same sense and in the same way as they perceive.”
The Imam said, “Allah is High Exalted above all such things. Only such things are perceived, which has the attributes of created things. Allah is not created.”


Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Walid (RA) said: Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Saffar said: Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid said, on the authority of some of our scholars that Imam al-Rida (AS) was passing by a grave from the graves of his Household, so he placed his hand on the grave and said:
"O my God! Your Omnipotence is apparent. However, since You are Shapeless, people are ignorant of You. They try to measure You in a vain efforts to recognize You. However, any measurement of You is other than you. O my Lord! I disassociate myself from those who compare You with Your creation. Nothing is similar to You. My Lord! They cannot comprehend You. If they wanted to recognize You, Your blessings are the best proof for You. O my God! It is sufficient for them to ponder on Your Creation, and to refrain from exploring Your Nature. However, they consider You are your Creation as one and the same. That is why they fail to truly recognize You and consider Your Signs as their Lord and have described you as such. My Lord! You are far above the descriptions of the anthropomorphist."

Why are you preaching Islam at me?

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Why are you preaching Islam at me?

I am not "preaching" or proselytizing anything.
I am showing you from primary sources that what I said before is not my "opinion", it is orthodox teaching, unlike what you accused of me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I agree, it's frustrating as hell.

Why should it be frustrating? Allah said:
"Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." " Al-Kafirun

A created thing is not God. A being or entity is not God.
God is nothing like Creation, God is the source of Creation, the ground of all reality.
This is fundamentals to Abrahamic theology.

That is so different, antithetical, to what many Hindus believe that God and humans are not different. Atma is a part of Paramatma. The fundamentals of Abrahamic and dharmic religions are different.

Here's something you may be interested in.
Brahma Worship

The writer of the piece is not a Hindu. Actually, he does not even understand the difference between Brahma and Brahman. It is OK that he has written something, but that need not be taken as what Hindus believe. I do not deny that there are non-Hindus who understand the concept of Brahman better than many Hindus.

I said, ‘Yes, I have gained such understanding.’
The Imam then said, ‘May Allah grant you success in it and keep you steadfast (in Iman).’

Names and attributes are relative to creation, not God.

Al-Husayn ibn Ahmad ibn Idris (RA) said, on the authority of his father, on the authority of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Jabbar, on the authority of Safwan ibn Yahya that I enquired from Imam al-Kazim (AS): “Inform me about the Will. Is it a part of Allah or is it of the Creation?
Hence, he (AS) answered "The will is part of the created conscience, and it manifest itself in action. As for Will of Allah, the Mighty and High, then it is His Making [ihdath] and none other than that because He does not reflect, does not imagine, and does not think. These attributes cannot be applied to Him as they are attributes of creation. Thus, Allah’s Will is action and nothing else. He says to it: “Be and it is,” without a word or speech expressed by tongue, or by imagination or by thought. His Will is expressed without form in the same way that He is without form."

True Abrahamic Monotheism is strictly Apophatic and anti-Anthropomorphic.

If Allah "does not reflect, does not imagine, and does not think", then he is closer to Brahman. Then Allah will have no will, he would not grant anything. He would not say "be and it would". To say that it requires thinking, it requires desire, to whom to give his mercy and to whom not to give his bounty. But you say Allah does not think. Brahman IMV does none of these things. Perhaps we know our Brahman better than how Safwan ibn Yahya knew his Allah. Abrahamics have their view, Dharmics have their view; and East and West do not meet.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

If Allah "does not reflect, does not imagine, and does not think", then he is closer to Brahman. Then Allah will have no will, he would not grant anything. He would not say "be and it would". To say that it requires thinking, it requires desire, to whom to give his mercy and to whom not to give his bounty. But you say Allah does not think. Brahman IMV does none of these things.

Then we believe the same things, as shown above.

Perhaps we know our Brahman better than how Safwan ibn Yahya knew his Allah.

You mean to say Imam al-Kazim, the speaker of that Hadith and the seventh successor to Prophet Muhammad, a member of the Ahl al-Bayt.

Abrahamics have their view, Dharmics have their view; and East and West do not meet.

Lol, the Middle East IS the East.