Abrahamic Religions: God Forgives All Sins?

[Thanda]

If you come across a ' suicide' verse or passage I hope you will post it.

Do you think Adam committed suicide ( self murder ) ?______
After all, Adam knew full well in advance that eating the forbidden fruit would result in his death.
Eve was deceived, but Adam was Not deceived.
Being created with perfectly sound hearts, mind and bodies they could only sin on purpose.
Adam deliberately, on purpose, willfully broke God's Law which carried with it the death penalty.
However, after eating, Adam did Not take away his own life by putting himself to death as a person would do so today.
Adam, like Satan, showed no remorse nor repentance and was Not forgiven for his intentional sin.- Genesis 3:19

How do you know he showed no remorse?

 

[Thanda]

what is interesting is that some people don't realize they too pick those things that fit into their predetermined paradigm.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=torah+ger&qs_version=OJB

when the sun goes down, we'll be dancing in the dark.


http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/H/HYPOCRISY;+HYPROCRITE/



Yeshayah 32:6 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
6 For the naval will speak foolishness, and his lev will work evil, to practise khonef (hypocrisy), and to utter to’ah (error, perversity) against Hashem, to leave unsatisfied the nefesh of the ra’av (hungry), and he will cause the drink of the tzameh (thirsty) to fail.

http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/4...ah-imminent-jewish-world/#IdJoJSPgPbP0y1EH.97


how deep is your love?

Why do you keep ignoring the negative commands Jesus gave that are being quoted by @metis?

Secondly Jesus said "If ye love me keep my commandments"

 

[Fool]

Why do you keep ignoring the negative commands Jesus gave that are being quoted by @metis?

Secondly Jesus said "If ye love me keep my commandments"

ah to deny self doesn't require the focus on the negative of denying self. it is the focus on love; which becomes selfless in being transformed into love of all as ONE and not just love of self vs other self.

energy cannot be created/destroyed; so then how is self transformed? except in love to a higher cause, or oneness.

if love(god) were your creator(father), you would have loved me.

and i'm not a literalist. i'm more of an idealist. ideals are bullet proof mr. creedy.


Think I'll miss you forever
Like the stars miss the sun in the morning sky
Later's better than never
Even if you're gone I'm gonna drive (drive, drive)

I got that summertime, summertime sadness
S-s-summertime, summertime sadness
Got that summertime, summertime sadness
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh

lana del rey

 

[rosends]

as requested on another thread. are you perturbed by the fact that it was a translation by christians? or is the translation incorrect altogether?

The problem is that it is incorrect in many spots and the "incorrectness" is driven by a different theology. On another thread, the text was quoted and it translated a word in oredr to make it seem like the text fell in line with a Gospel claim. That's dishonest. Even more so is to call yourself the "Orthodox Jewish" when in fact, it is a Christian-driven text with nothing to do with Orthodox Judaism.

are words more important than the idea they should convey?

They must operate hand in hand. If one ignores the precision of the words, on cannot appreciate the meaning of the ideas.

 

[Fool]

The problem is that it is incorrect in many spots and the "incorrectness" is driven by a different theology. On another thread, the text was quoted and it translated a word in oredr to make it seem like the text fell in line with a Gospel claim. That's dishonest. Even more so is to call yourself the "Orthodox Jewish" when in fact, it is a Christian-driven text with nothing to do with Orthodox Judaism.

They must operate hand in hand. If one ignores the precision of the words, on cannot appreciate the meaning of the ideas.

i'm not interested in theologies. ideas are not exclusive to religions. definitely not interested in tutelary deities either.

 

[dantech]

love isn't exclusive to any of these things; nor a respecter of persons.

You are either deliberately dodging the question, or simply didn't understand. I'll try one more time, and then we'll either continue or I'll just give up because I'll know you don't want an honest argument.

You said:

love fulfills the law. it is absolute. that which is divided against itself, will fall, or fail."

First let me define "The Law". "The Law" is the law that was given to Moses on Sinai, which we can still read today, in the Torah. I'm not going to include Oral Laws as only Jews believe in them.

My question to you remains: How can we fulfill a law which requires us to not eat pork? The only logical way is by not eating pork. However you seem to think that The Law (in its entirety) is obsolete.
I'm willing to accept that, but you will need to back your statement with scripture.
Just saying the The Law is obsolete because it is fulfilled doesn't make it so.

Returning to my first example: Can you fulfill traffic laws, or are they binding to every driver in their jurisdiction?

 

[Fool]

You are either deliberately dodging the question, or simply didn't understand. I'll try one more time, and then we'll either continue or I'll just give up because I'll know you don't want an honest argument.

You said:

First let me define "The Law". "The Law" is the law that was given to Moses on Sinai, which we can still read today, in the Torah. I'm not going to include Oral Laws as only Jews believe in them.

My question to you remains: How can we fulfill a law which requires us to not eat pork? The only logical way is by not eating pork. However you seem to think that The Law (in its entirety) is obsolete.
I'm willing to accept that, but you will need to back your statement with scripture.
Just saying the The Law is obsolete because it is fulfilled doesn't make it so.

Returning to my first example: Can you fulfill traffic laws, or are they binding to every driver in their jurisdiction?

the idea of a law is not exclusive to a religion. you should give up.

dharma is the law as much as the word torah relates to the idea of law.

the word can be exclusive to a culture, nation, tribe, or people but ideas are not. the law is not a respecter of person; otherwise it's exclusive and temperal.

 

[dantech]

the idea of a law is not exclusive to a religion. you should give up.

dharma is the law as much as the word torah relates to the idea of law.

the word can be exclusive to a culture, nation, tribe, or people but ideas are not. the law is not a respecter of person; otherwise it's exclusive and temperal.

You're in the Abrahamic DIR, in a thread called "Abrahamic Religions G-d Forgives all sins"
The only common ground between the Abrahamic religions related to law is the Torah.
Either you're in the wrong DIR or terribly misinformed.

 

[Fool]

You're in the Abrahamic DIR, in a thread called "Abrahamic Religions G-d Forgives all sins"
The only common ground between the Abrahamic religions related to law is the Torah.
Either you're in the wrong DIR or terribly misinformed.

i'm not confused. i'm discussing the idea that ideas are not exclusive to a specific religion even if the language and custom of a religion are. case in point, the abram of the OT came from the east country. so obviously abraham brought his beliefs and incorporated them into the local culture. culture is based on environment. i'm still discussing abrahamic ideas, even if i'm not using the exacting words.

abraham = brahma
sarai = sarasvatti
hagar = ghaggar

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How do you know he showed no remorse?

Adam was created with human perfection of having a sound heart, mind and body meaning Adam ( unlike us ) could only sin on purpose, deliberately, willfully.
There is No record in Scripture of Adam nor Eve ever repenting, but rather blaming.
Eve blamed Satan - Genesis 3:13
Adam blamed God - Genesis 3:12

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How does love fulfill not eating pork?
How does love fulfill not lighting a fire on the shabbas?
How does love fulfill not eating bread during passover?
Also how do you fulfill a law? A law is a permanent thing which can't be rendered obsolete... Can you fulfill traffic laws, or do they remain in effect for as long as you will drive?

I guess in a sense, one can fulfill the motor-vehicle code by Not breaking it. Traffic laws can be modified. At one time there were No one-way streets, speed limits also change, etc.
Nevertheless, traffic laws, although changing in form, are always some way in effect.

We do know physical laws governing the universe are permanent, unbreakable such as gravity. - Jeremiah 33:20-21

Noah had God's temporary law in God's instructions in building the Ark.

Wasn't ' brother-in-law ' marriage temporary as found in the book of Ruth ?

So, aren't some laws temporary?

Moses was Mediator of the temporary Law Covenant for only the nation of ancient Israel. Not for all nations of earth.
Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant, with his new commandment - John 13:34-35, which is permanent for everyone on earth.
We fulfill Jesus' new command by having self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus did.

 

[Thanda]

Adam was created with human perfection of having a sound heart, mind and body meaning Adam ( unlike us ) could only sin on purpose, deliberately, willfully.
There is No record in Scripture of Adam nor Eve ever repenting, but rather blaming.
Eve blamed Satan - Genesis 3:13
Adam blamed God - Genesis 3:12

Sure, that was their original reaction. Adam lived for nine hundreds years thereafter, he had plenty of time to repent. When they were given a children Adam and Eve said they have received them from God. Abel and Seth were both taught by Adam to love God and give sacrifices to them. So what makes you think they did not, after they were chastised repent of their wrong doing? It makes no sense. There is no record of Angels coming to teach Adams children the ways of the Lord so it seems plain that they were taught by Adam and Eve.

And I don't know about you but I often do sin on purpose, deliberately and willfully. In fact, IMO, doing something wrong on purpose, deliberately and willfully is the very definition of sin.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sure, that was their original reaction. Adam lived for nine hundreds years thereafter, he had plenty of time to repent. When they were given a children Adam and Eve said they have received them from God. Abel and Seth were both taught by Adam to love God and give sacrifices to them. So what makes you think they did not, after they were chastised repent of their wrong doing? It makes no sense. There is no record of Angels coming to teach Adams children the ways of the Lord so it seems plain that they were taught by Adam and Eve.
And I don't know about you but I often do sin on purpose, deliberately and willfully. In fact, IMO, doing something wrong on purpose, deliberately and willfully is the very definition of sin.

Sin is either: on purpose, deliberate, wilful, premeditated or Not. Everyone falls short and that can be by accident or even by being careless/thoughtless. ( No white lies )
There is the mention of the ' unforgivable sin ' at Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6

Adam according to Genesis 3:19 ' returned ' to the dust of the ground. If Adam was forgiven he would still be alive on earth today.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before. Adam ( all of Adam ) simply went back returning to the dust of the ground where Adam started.

Even the demons believe in God - James 2:19 - so believing God exists does Not make one a worshipper of God.
Besides Abel and Seth so was Cain taught by the same parents.
Remember the Garden of Eden was still in existence - Genesis 3:24 - so A&E's children would have known about the garden and why they had No access to it.

 

[Thanda]

Sin is either: on purpose, deliberate, wilful, premeditated or Not. Everyone falls short and that can be by accident or even by being careless/thoughtless. ( No white lies )
There is the mention of the ' unforgivable sin ' at Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6

And yet there is no mention that Adam and Eve (who did not even know good and evil) committed this unpardonable sin.

Adam according to Genesis 3:19 ' returned ' to the dust of the ground. If Adam was forgiven he would still be alive on earth today.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before. Adam ( all of Adam ) simply went back returning to the dust of the ground where Adam started.

We will all return to the dust? Or are you special - are you going to go somewhere else when you die. Adam being forgiven and him dying are two very separate things. If I say to my son, "If you don't study today I will won't let you watch TV tomorrow". If he refuses to study I will honor my promise as I'm a man of my word, even if he repents later. God said Adam would surely die if he ate the fruit. After eating the fruit there was nothing Adam could do to change that consequences God had set. So God forgiving Adam and Adam dying are completely unrelated

Even the demons believe in God - James 2:19 - so believing God exists does Not make one a worshipper of God.
Besides Abel and Seth so was Cain taught by the same parents.
Remember the Garden of Eden was still in existence - Genesis 3:24 - so A&E's children would have known about the garden and why they had No access to it.

Knowing that the Garden of Eden exists and knowing that they are supposed to offer sacrifices to God are two different things. Adam and Eve taught their children to worship God. Cain decided he loved Satan more than God and rebelled against both them and God. The fact that Cain rebelled against his parents by worshiping Satan is found in the fact that he fled from his parents presence. If Adam and Eve were the evil people you seem to think they were Cain should have been welcomed by his parents for refusing to obey God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And yet there is no mention that Adam and Eve (who did not even know good and evil) committed this unpardonable sin.
We will all return to the dust? Or are you special - are you going to go somewhere else when you die. Adam being forgiven and him dying are two very separate things. If I say to my son, "If you don't study today I will won't let you watch TV tomorrow". If he refuses to study I will honor my promise as I'm a man of my word, even if he repents later. God said Adam would surely die if he ate the fruit. After eating the fruit there was nothing Adam could do to change that consequences God had set. So God forgiving Adam and Adam dying are completely unrelated
Knowing that the Garden of Eden exists and knowing that they are supposed to offer sacrifices to God are two different things. Adam and Eve taught their children to worship God. Cain decided he loved Satan more than God and rebelled against both them and God. The fact that Cain rebelled against his parents by worshiping Satan is found in the fact that he fled from his parents presence. If Adam and Eve were the evil people you seem to think they were Cain should have been welcomed by his parents for refusing to obey God.

... and you will find No Scripture saying A&E committed the unpardonable sin. Adam and Eve were law breakers which carried capital punishment as the bad consequence.
The final fault belongs to Adam because Adam broke God's Law after Eve.
Why do you think Adam did Not know ( have knowledge ) of what God taught Adam at Genesis 2:16-17 ?
By saying ' do not eat ' was as good as God putting up a No trespassing sign on His particular tree.
God was determining what was good and what was bad for mankind.
Adam wanted to self-determine for mankind what was good or bad instead of listening to his Father, God and Creator.
By breaking the known Law, Adam set up People Rule as superior to God's Rule as the best way of governing mankind.
The passing of mankind's history has shown human rule does Not bring Peace on Earth.

The difference between us and Adam is that we sin by mistake, by accident. Adam sinned on purpose. Before sinning Adam's leanings were only upright.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we can't stop sinning we die. We have inherited Adamic imperfection from our father Adam with leanings toward sin.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Revelation 1:18

As far as what Adam and Eve taught their children could also be what God taught his angelic sons - James 2:19-20
That does Not automatically make anyone a worshipper of God. Jesus even mentioned a difference at John 4:23-24
The ' founding ' of the world of mankind does Not start with Adam Nor Cain, but according to Jesus with Abel - Matthew 23:35

 

[Thanda]

... and you will find No Scripture saying A&E committed the unpardonable sin.

I'm glad you agree

Adam and Eve were law breakers which carried capital punishment as the bad consequence.
The final fault belongs to Adam because Adam broke God's Law after Eve.

I agree

Why do you think Adam did Not know ( have knowledge ) of what God taught Adam at Genesis 2:16-17 ?

I am simply quoting the scriptures. The scriptures say Adam did not know good and evil. That is what the bible says, not me.
And where in the scriptures btw does it say that Adam had a perfect knowledge and that as a result his sins were worse than yours and mine?

God was determining what was good and what was bad for mankind.
Adam wanted to self-determine for mankind what was good or bad instead of listening to his Father, God and Creator.
By breaking the known Law, Adam set up People Rule as superior to God's Rule as the best way of governing mankind.
The passing of mankind's history has shown human rule does Not bring Peace on Earth.

I agree. That was Adam's error. He thought he could determine what was better than God did. And that is the same sin we all commit. I still see no reason why we can be forgiven when we repent and Adam cannot - does God hate Adam?

The difference between us and Adam is that we sin by mistake, by accident. Adam sinned on purpose.

Speak for yourself, when I sin I sin on purpose. If I do something by mistake then I call that a mistake, not a sin.

Before sinning Adam's leanings were only upright.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we can't stop sinning we die. We have inherited Adamic imperfection from our father Adam with leanings toward sin.

There is no evidence in the Bible that if we stopped sinning we wouldn't die. Noah and Job were both called perfect but both died.

We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Revelation 1:18

But he won't resurrect Adam? - does God also hate Adam?

As far as what Adam and Eve taught their children could also be what God taught his angelic sons - James 2:19-20
That does Not automatically make anyone a worshipper of God. Jesus even mentioned a difference at John 4:23-24

What do these verses prove? They say the devils believe there is a God? Do devils offer sacrifices to God? Adam not only believed in God but he also taught his children to both believe in him and offer sacrifices to him

The ' founding ' of the world of mankind does Not start with Adam Nor Cain, but according to Jesus with Abel - Matthew 23:35

This verse says nothing of the sort. All it says is that righteous blood has been shed from Abel until Zachariah.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm glad you agree
I agree
I am simply quoting the scriptures. The scriptures say Adam did not know good and evil. That is what the bible says, not me.
And where in the scriptures btw does it say that Adam had a perfect knowledge and that as a result his sins were worse than yours and mine?
I agree. That was Adam's error. He thought he could determine what was better than God did. And that is the same sin we all commit. I still see no reason why we can be forgiven when we repent and Adam cannot - does God hate Adam?
Speak for yourself, when I sin I sin on purpose. If I do something by mistake then I call that a mistake, not a sin.
There is no evidence in the Bible that if we stopped sinning we wouldn't die. Noah and Job were both called perfect but both died.
But he won't resurrect Adam? - does God also hate Adam?
What do these verses prove? They say the devils believe there is a God? Do devils offer sacrifices to God? Adam not only believed in God but he also taught his children to both believe in him and offer sacrifices to him
This verse says nothing of the sort. All it says is that righteous blood has been shed from Abel until Zachariah.

Says, ' from Abel ', Not from Adam nor Cain - Matthew 23:35

Adam was taught: you eat, you die. The evil or bad would be capital punishment for eating ( stealing ) God's fruit.
Adam was created sinless. We have inherited Adam's then acquired imperfection of leaning toward sin.
There is No record of Adam ( or Satan for that matter ) of showing any remorse or repenting, but just Adam blaming God for giving him Eve.- Genesis 3:12
Where was Adam's love for God and his Father ?
If we by accident drive to fast, and get a ticket, that is a mistake and we do Not call that sinning against the motor-vehicle code, but that we did wrong.
All that is wrong in God's eyes is called sin instead of a crime. Who falls short according to Romans 5:12; Romans 3:23 ?_____

Noah and Job are Not called sinless. They sinned and they died. Only Jesus died sinless according to Scripture.

 

[Thanda]

Says, ' from Abel ', Not from Adam nor Cain - Matthew 23:35

What is your point?

Adam was taught: you eat, you die. The evil or bad would be capital punishment for eating ( stealing ) God's fruit.
Adam was created sinless. We have inherited Adam's then acquired imperfection of leaning toward sin.

Fine, and so?

There is No record of Adam ( or Satan for that matter ) of showing any remorse or repenting, but just Adam blaming God for giving him Eve.- Genesis 3:12

Is there any record of Noah repenting for becoming drunk when the Bible is very clear that God is against drinking too much?

Where was Adam's love for God and his Father ?

Adam did not have a perfect love for God. According to Peter knowledge precedes charity. Adam were lacking in knowledge of good and evil (something you and I have). But who knows what he learnt during his 900 years on earth. Chances are he learnt more about God in that time than you or me. And chances are he learnt to love God in that time more than you and I. Remember also that after Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit God himself made them clothes to wear and clothed them. God loved Adam and Eve even after their sin. Adam and Eve taught their children to serve God. There is no reason to assume Adam will be left in the grave while you and I go to heaven.

If we by accident drive to fast, and get a ticket, that is a mistake and we do Not call that sinning against the motor-vehicle code, but that we did wrong.
All that is wrong in God's eyes is called sin instead of a crime. Who falls short according to Romans 5:12; Romans 3:23 ?_____

Do you only do bad things by accident? Personally I have done many bad things on purpose.

Noah and Job are Not called sinless. They sinned and they died. Only Jesus died sinless according to Scripture.

The scriptures say they were perfect. Concerning Noah:

"Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." - Genesis 6:9​

Concerning Job:

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." - Job 1:1​

And to Abraham God said:

"I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." - Genesis 17:1​

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Noah, Job, Abraham ( those of Hebrews chapter 11 ) were ' perfect ' in showing love.
When Jesus said love your enemies - Matthew 5:44-48 - that was meant Not to be imperfect as to be lacking in love.
Be like the neighborly good Samaritan and widen out in showing love even to strangers in their time of distress. - Luke 10:30-37
- Zephaniah 2:3

 

[NewChapter]

In Islam, we believe that God is Most Forgiving and that He forgives all sins when a believer repents.

Is it the same concept in Judaism and Christianity?

Actually Cordoba, the Koran says that "Allah" does not forgive setting up partners with "Him" and that "He" does not forgive "believing, then disbelieving, the believing again, and then disbelieving again, and then increasing in disbelief."