dust1n
Zindīq
Wait, so is the eschatology you refer to saying that all humans except one family will die in this flood?
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Abrahamic Religions: Why not just start with Noah?
- Thread starter dust1n
- Start date
Wait, so is the eschatology you refer to saying that all humans except one family will die in this flood?
dust1n
Zindīq
I got a question. In the Quran, God doesn't destroy all people with the flood, just the ones Noah had asked and prayed about, right? The people who threatened him when he preached?
dust1n
Zindīq
Because everything before Noah apparently had no consequence, other than making Noah.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Just because HE knows if it will be futile doesn't mean we know, so the process is important. Noah made his own choices, some good and some bad and we learn from all of them.
As a side note, the commentators ask why the text didn't start with the Exodus or the first laws given to the children of Israel. Why include any of the stories beforehand at all. But that's a totally different issue.
dust1n
Zindīq
Like, humanity need to watch someone touch the frying pan first, less they burn themselves?
That is an interesting question. What sort of conclusions did these commentators arrive at?
rosends
Well-Known Member
There are many discussions -- the central commentator Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki) asks the question on the first verse of the Torah. Here is one discussion not so much of his answer, but moreso on the nature of the question
http://www.nishma.org/articles/insight/insight5769-15.htm
This one requires that you scroll down a little bit http://www.netivot-shalom.org.il/parshaeng/bo5763.php
and another summary
http://blog.webyeshiva.org/ramban-on-the-torah-the-first-rashi-and-the-first-ramban/
Actually, the Bible record says Abel enjoyed God's favor and so did Enoch. I believe that while God can foresee the future, God does not choose to foresee every event that will happen in the future.
dust1n
Zindīq
Thank you, good sir.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
Yes, the deluge was for specific people.
""We can glean several points from the Qur’anic account. One important point here is the clarification that the deluge came both from the clouds and from the land. Water cascaded from all sources to create the great flood. The above verse describing the waters meeting seems to suggest the coming together of two great rivers or lakes. The significance of this point will become clear later on, when we discuss possible locations for the flood.
Secondly, the Qur’an refers to the resting place of the Ark as al-Judi, which means a high place. Early Muslim commentators, such as Yaqut al-Hamwi, believed the mountains to be the range to the east of Mosul rather than Ararat. (Ahmad, Vol. 3, p.1079)
Third, the Qur’an implies that the deluge was a regional flood which punished the specific tribes who ignored Noah(as). In contrast, the Bible implies that the deluge covered the whole globe, drowning everyone.
(Yahya, p.16)
Finally, the Holy Qur’an also seems to imply that in the future, archaeologists will find evidence of the Ark. Indeed, Chapter 54, Verse 16 clearly seems to indicate that the Ark has been preserved as a Sign for future generations.""
http://reviewofreligions.org/5397/noahas-and-the-flood/
psychoslice
Veteran Member
But wouldn't they be biased ?.
dust1n
Zindīq
Gotcha, thank you!
God knows everything in advance. Earth is a process for humans to show up who they are and to be witnessed by the angels and chosen saints. Such that God will legitimately bring the qualified to heaven where is an eternity for the qualified humans and angels to live with God forever.
Part of God's Ultimate Plan is build the heaven. God is completely incompatible with sin. So He defines Law to qualify entities with freewill, angels and humans, to enter heaven. It's more like, "I am incompatible with sin, so I set the requirements here that if you are not qualified, you won't be able to live with a sin incompatible God in such an eternity". So Eden was built to demonstrate, as a process of witnessing, that humans cannot be brought to heaven directly without filtering out the unqualified. If all humans are brought directly to heaven, some of them will choose to sin. So planet is thus a place serving as a filter where you show up as who you are for God to legitimately bring you to heaven. It's more like, "I showed everyone that this guy is a qualified one, so now I bring him to heaven where he will live with me forever. "
After Adam was kicked out of Eden. Humans are no longer living inside God's realm. When put outside God's realm (Satan is said to be the god here), no one is capable of abiding God's Law. Whoever put outside God's realm and under the influence of Satan and each other, will inevitably break God's Law. So no humans can be qualified to enter heaven legitimately.
Pre-Noah history demonstrates that "none of you can be qualified to enter heaven, I need to do something or else all of you will have to be abandoned". In this perspective, humans are exclusively born to be the sinners.
Now it comes the covenant. A covenant basically says, "since you humans cannot keep God's Law in full, you are given a chosen set of Law (such as Mosaic Law in a covenant granted to the Jews) which you can keep to a standard God specifies such that you will be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ."
A covenant is thus always granted unlike a contract which is signed by mutual agreement. It is because without such a covenant, no humans can be saved.
As time goes by, humans sin more and more and will go further away from God, under peer influence and influence of Satan and his angels. So even the covenant born with you won't be able to save you.
God thus provided the New Covenant as an option. The difference of this New Covenant is that,
1) it's not born with, you need to make a choice with consent in order to be under the protection of this New Covenant.
2) it's permanent because its Grace is maximized where Law is no longer a measurement. The only measurement which qualifies you is Faith which is God's Grace earned through Jesus Christ.
As a result, post-Noah humans are all covered by a covenant which makes them capable of being saved. Humans pre-Noah were uncovered by any covenant. It's thus impossible for them to be saved. However, the Bible seems to hint that somehow pre-Noah humans are also covered by a covenant given in a special way. Christ may have passed such a covenant to them through His three days in Hades. So pre-Noah humans, somehow, may possibly be covered by the New Covenant.
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As a summary,
(Part of) God's Ultimate Plan is to build an eternity called Heave where entities with freewill such as angels and humans will live forever with God who is completely incompatible with sin.
To achieve the above,
Eden is a necessity
Planet Earth is a necessity
Even Satan is a necessity (he acts as a magnet to firmly hold the unqualified and to let go the qualified for God to pick up)
Noah's event is a necessity
God's Law is a necessity
God's Grace and covenants are a necessity
Jesus Christ is a necessity (no one can enter Heaven without Christ)
God's hiding behind without showing up is a necessity
Judgment is a necessity (to judge who shall enter Heaven)
Paradise is a necessity (to hold humans souls of the saved)
Hades/sheol is a necessity (to hold the human souls of the unsaved)
Abyss is a necessity (to hold the spirits of the fallen angels)
(Part of) God's Ultimate Plan is to build an eternity called Heave where entities with freewill such as angels and humans will live forever with God who is completely incompatible with sin.
To achieve the above,
Eden is a necessity
Planet Earth is a necessity
Even Satan is a necessity (he acts as a magnet to firmly hold the unqualified and to let go the qualified for God to pick up)
Noah's event is a necessity
God's Law is a necessity
God's Grace and covenants are a necessity
Jesus Christ is a necessity (no one can enter Heaven without Christ)
God's hiding behind without showing up is a necessity
Judgment is a necessity (to judge who shall enter Heaven)
Paradise is a necessity (to hold humans souls of the saved)
Hades/sheol is a necessity (to hold the human souls of the unsaved)
Abyss is a necessity (to hold the spirits of the fallen angels)
Nonsense.
One would sincerely hope so.
That remains your non-sense, and blasphemy.
^ a chilling retort.
Excellent.
Humanity rebooted with Noah, since the rest have been wiped out. So, why do we still carry the sin of Adam and not the righteousness of Noah? Why focus on one and not the other? Or was Noah hopelessely tainted as well?
Ciao
- viole
One word: wine.
^ a chilling retort.
No one knows how capable God actually is. It's not an offense if we overestimated Him. However, it is a blasphemy if He's underestimated. It's a kind of common sense.