Abrahamics Only: Should there be a Karaite label under the Judaism tab?

[Simplelogic]

Oh, so you quote something you don't agree with but which you say is a "defense of [your] position" and you are willing to disprove its fallacies. Makes perfect sense.

When I said "defense of my position" I meant that it was in opposition to my position. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[nothead]

Ok then. Show me were in the Torah we are prohibited from plucking a head of grain. If you can, then I will believe you.

Maybe then we are in agreement, for again I affirm the Core Law, the Ten and the Shema as meant.

Show me where I would need to know more, in the Torah.

 

[rosends]

Maybe then we are in agreement, for again I affirm the Core Law, the Ten and the Shema as meant.

Show me where I would need to know more, in the Torah.

So I'm just curious -- the text says that on the sabbath, one may not do "work." How do you know what counts as work? Why would any one person's understanding of "work" correlate with anyone else's and wouldn't god then be setting people up for rule breaking or is god making a rule and he doesn't care how people follow it?

 

[Avi1001]

What do my beliefs have to do with my question?? Karaite Jews are a valid sect of Judaism. Karaite Judaism does not believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. Why do they not deserve a tab? There are other sects in Judaism which hold to different Messianic claims (which Karaites do not). Why make this about me anyways??

BTW. I reject 80% of the NT.

I am pleased to second the motion to create a Karaite tab in the Judaism DIR. I would say, most of the discussion, these last 164 posts, supports this motion.

All in favor...say Ay... ! Ay !!!

 

[Simplelogic]

So I'm just curious -- the text says that on the sabbath, one may not do "work." How do you know what counts as work? Why would any one person's understanding of "work" correlate with anyone else's and wouldn't god then be setting people up for rule breaking or is god making a rule and he doesn't care how people follow it?

I don't think this as big of a conundrum as you are making it. The clearest interpretation of "work" throughout the Tanakh has more to do with gaining income then anything else. This is why there is a clear Torah prohibition on "buying and selling". This is also why YHVH rebuked the Israelites numerous times for permitting commerce on His day. I do believe that YHVH simply wants His people to rest primarily. In the ancient days this would have also been a significant trust test because most societies worked 7 days a week. YHVH simply wants to see who trusts in His provision and protection.

This is also the reason for the shemita year of rest. It was never as meticulous as humans have tried to interpret it. The man who was killed for "gathering wood" was doing it in clear defiance of the command. We should fear YHVH by making appropriate provisions for His day. The the micromanaging concepts of the Pharisees and their man made definitions of "creative work" are illegitimate and contrary to the very spirit of the command.

 

[Simplelogic]

I am pleased to second the motion to create a Karaite tab in the Judaism DIR. I would say, most of the discussion, these last 164 posts, supports this motion.

All in favor...say Ay... ! Ay !!!

Of course, I am in agreement!

 

[Avi1001]

Of course, I am in agreement!

That makes the vote: 2-0 ...in favor of the motion...we win !! Now send a link of this post...to the St-ff....and they will set up your spanking new....Karaite DIR...Mazel Tov !!

 

[Simplelogic]

Maybe then we are in agreement, for again I affirm the Core Law, the Ten and the Shema as meant.

Show me where I would need to know more, in the Torah.

Ok…here is an example. Many people love to quote Yeshua stating "you shall love your neighbor as yourself". But few understand that the Torah actually gives us a blueprint for carrying out this beautiful command. Consider the follow passage from Lev 19 which defines how we love our neighbors:

9And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. 10And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

11Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. 12And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

13Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. 14Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

15Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. 16Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I amthe LORD.

17Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Lev 19: 9-17


My point is that we can't isolate the "great commands" and think that as long as we do them we are ok. The whole Torah is about loving YHVH and loving our neighbor.

Some of these commands are difficult to do in detail. If you don't have a farm you can still operate under these guidelines in terms of giving to the poor. Its the premise that is easy to understand and if a man searches honestly, he will find the best way to carry out the command.

 

[Simplelogic]

That makes the vote: 2-0 ...in favor of the motion...we win !! Now send a link of this post...to the St-ff....and they will set up your spanking new....Karaite DIR...Mazel Tov !!

I wouldn't even know who to send it to.

 

[Avi1001]

I wouldn't even know who to send it to.

In that case...maybe there will be a miracle...like the parting of the Red Sea...and a Karaite DIR will be formed...

 

[rosends]

I don't think this as big of a conundrum as you are making it. The clearest interpretation of "work" throughout the Tanakh has more to do with gaining income then anything else. This is why there is a clear Torah prohibition on "buying and selling". This is also why YHVH rebuked the Israelites numerous times for permitting commerce on His day. I do believe that YHVH simply wants His people to rest primarily. In the ancient days this would have also been a significant trust test because most societies worked 7 days a week. YHVH simply wants to see who trusts in His provision and protection.

This is also the reason for the shemita year of rest. It was never as meticulous as humans have tried to interpret it. The man who was killed for "gathering wood" was doing it in clear defiance of the command. We should fear YHVH by making appropriate provisions for His day. The the micromanaging concepts of the Pharisees and their man made definitions of "creative work" are illegitimate and contrary to the very spirit of the command.

So your reading has left you still with no particular explanation. You can't carry sticks. Anything else? You create an interpretation of "gaining income" though you don't source that in a text and then you talk about "rest" without defining that. Claiming that any specific set of rules is "illegitimate" means that the law (not the "spirit" which is not a textual idea) can't be applied to all people. So god gave a set of rules and penalties without explaining how one complies with the rule.

 

[rosends]

I am pleased to second the motion to create a Karaite tab in the Judaism DIR. I would say, most of the discussion, these last 164 posts, supports this motion.

All in favor...say Ay... ! Ay !!!

Just curious -- why wouldn't the same logic apply to "Messianic Judaism" as a branch of Judaism...as long as there is a thread which argues it.

 

[Avi1001]

Just curious -- why wouldn't the same logic apply to "Messianic Judaism" as a branch of Judaism...as long as there is a thread which argues it.

Hi Rabbi Rosen...it looks like SL wants his DIR in Judaism....I have no objection.......actually I tried getting a Renewal DIR when I came...but it never happened...it's up to the St-ff....and the're busy flapping in the Chatroom...

 

[rosends]

Hi Rabbi Rosen...it looks like SL wants his DIR in Judaism....I have no objection.......actually I tried getting a Renewal DIR when I came...but it never happened...it's up to the St-ff....and the're busy flapping in the Chatroom...

But what is the logical process? What determines it? What rule could be employed which would include Karaites and exclude other groups? A rule has to be precise, predictable and fruitful so I'd love to hear the rule applied in this case.

 

[Avi1001]

But what is the logical process? What determines it? What rule could be employed which would include Karaites and exclude other groups? A rule has to be precise, predictable and fruitful so I'd love to hear the rule applied in this case.

Of course, Rabbi Rosen...you are new here...so you want to know how the process works for setting up the DIR....well, we all make erudite speeches for 180 posts or so....then the St-ff all get drunk...and vote to make no changes....that's how we roll, Rabbi R.....

 

[Simplelogic]

So your reading has left you still with no particular explanation. You can't carry sticks. Anything else? You create an interpretation of "gaining income" though you don't source that in a text and then you talk about "rest" without defining that. Claiming that any specific set of rules is "illegitimate" means that the law (not the "spirit" which is not a textual idea) can't be applied to all people. So god gave a set of rules and penalties without explaining how one complies with the rule.

Buying and selling is not "my interpretation". Nehemiah elaborates on this concept.

31And if the people of the land bring ware or any victuals on the sabbath day to sell, that we would not buy it of them on the sabbath, or on the holy day: and that we would leave the seventh year, and the exaction of every debt. Nehemiah 10: 31

Most people think that without the Rabbinic OCD list of creative work then we would all be lost and illiterate to Torah. Not true. Here are some valid Shabbat principals:

Of course it wasn't that difficult to define work during the days of ancient Israel. Work was laborious and difficult. Resting from this work was not something that needed to be detailed. Our common work today is much different though the principals are the same. I believe the most logical way to properly interpret "work" is based on occupation. This is a good starting ground for people turning to Torah and easy to understand.

The whole point of "not working" is meant to promote REST! Just look at the text:

Deuteronomy 5:12-14, "Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ***, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou."

Here is the Sabbath summed up. STOP WORKING AND FREAKING REST!

I find it humorous how difficult humans can make a simple command to rest.

 

[Simplelogic]

Just curious -- why wouldn't the same logic apply to "Messianic Judaism" as a branch of Judaism...as long as there is a thread which argues it.

Messianic Judaism teaches salvation only via Yeshua. Not through repentance and Torah observance. Major difference imho.

 

[Simplelogic]

But what is the logical process? What determines it? What rule could be employed which would include Karaites and exclude other groups? A rule has to be precise, predictable and fruitful so I'd love to hear the rule applied in this case.

What was the rule of thumb for the rest of the sects of Judaism?

 

[Simplelogic]

So your reading has left you still with no particular explanation. You can't carry sticks. Anything else? You create an interpretation of "gaining income" though you don't source that in a text and then you talk about "rest" without defining that. Claiming that any specific set of rules is "illegitimate" means that the law (not the "spirit" which is not a textual idea) can't be applied to all people. So god gave a set of rules and penalties without explaining how one complies with the rule.

Do you really think the sticks were the reason the man was killed? I mean seriously, do you really think that YHVH just kills people because the picked up the wrong item. Or was this man being overtly rebellious to YHVH's command. I guess it depends on ones perception of YHVH Himself.

 

[rosends]

Buying and selling is not "my interpretation". It Nehemiah elaborates on this concept.

31And if the people of the land bring ware or any victuals on the sabbath day to sell, that we would not buy it of them on the sabbath, or on the holy day: and that we would leave the seventh year, and the exaction of every debt. Nehemiah 10: 31

Most people think that without the Rabbinic OCD list of creative work then we would all be lost and illiterate to Torah. Not true. Here are some valid Shabbat principals:

Of course it wasn't that difficult to define work during the days of ancient Israel. Work was laborious and difficult. Resting from this work was not something that needed to be detailed. Our common work today is much different though the principals are the same. I believe the most logical way to properly interpret "work" is based on occupation. This is a good starting ground for people turning to Torah and easy to understand.

The whole point of "not working" is meant to promote REST! Just look at the text:

Deuteronomy 5:12-14, "Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ***, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou."

Here is the Sabbath summed up. STOP WORKING AND FREAKING REST!

I find it humorous how difficult humans can make a simple command to rest.

So Nechemia can decide that people bringing food to sell and buying from them constitutes work but the text can't list that initially? And the law of the sabbath was enacted when there was no "people of the land to bring anything" so the rule was established when it could not be applied. I see. Work wasn't always laborious and difficult. To determine that you have to define what counts as work and you are doing it by working backwards. My wwork involves conversations. It isn't laborious or difficult so it is allowed? Or it isn't work? It is amazing how someone can take such an open ended comment and think that it is clear cut and obvious, and yet be unable to explain it. Bolding "all" doesn't explain "rest" -- it just shows that it is more than just buying stuff. And my cattle, which can't buy stuff and yet has to not work. Your reductionist vision must have you sit around in a dark room (along with your cattle) for the day, doing nothing. If that makes sense to you, have fun. It makes no sense when the text also commands that one offer sacrifices on the sabbath, and that takes work.