Abrahamics Only: Should there be a Karaite label under the Judaism tab?

[Simplelogic]

Why do you listen to what Jesus says? I thought you were against Rabbinic Judaism. I thought you didn't need teachers since the Written Torah, which you consider enough to completely understand Judaism, was written for 6th graders.

Good question. Yeshua taught me to keep the written Torah and find the simple interpretation. Man's doctrines are the reason that this simple way of reading the scriptures was abandoned. Yeshua was willing to suffer and die to show us just how simple it was and how far we had departed from it.

When I said I don't need teachers, please understand that I don't mean ANY teacher. I am referring to teachers who change or alter the commands in the written Torah.

 

[Simplelogic]

No, he endorsed the teachings, but not the behaviors/actions of the teachers. It doesn't take 5 threads to read Matt 23:2-3.

No he didn't. Can you show me where Yeshua confirms Pharisaic teachings?

 

[dantech]

Good question. Yeshua taught me to keep the written Torah and find the simple interpretation.

Why do you need a man to tell you that what you believe is Divine needs to be respected, or how to interpret it?

Man's doctrines are the reason that this simple way of reading the scriptures was abandoned. Yeshua was willing to suffer and die to show us just how simple it was and how far we had departed from it.

And which part of the Torah was clear enough to show you that it's okay to die in order to prove something? Also, everything you know about Jesus comes from the NT. Where in the NT does it say that Jesus was willing to die?
Matthew didn't seem to think it was voluntary..
Matthew 27:46 “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

 

[Simplelogic]

Why do you need a man to tell you that what you believe is Divine needs to be respected, or how to interpret it?

And which part of the Torah was clear enough to show you that it's okay to die in order to prove something? Also, everything you know about Jesus comes from the NT. Where in the NT does it say that Jesus was willing to die?
Matthew didn't seem to think it was voluntary..
Matthew 27:46 “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Wonderful questions.

17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” John 10:17-18

Compare this to the suffering servant prophecy:

1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
Because of the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities. Isaiah 53: 1-11

 

[Simplelogic]

Why did Yeshua say "my God my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

He was quoting Psalm 22:

1My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.

3Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.

4In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.

5To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

6But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.

7All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,

8“Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

9Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.

10Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

11Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.

12Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.

13They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.

14I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.

15My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.

16For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.

17I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;

18They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.

19But You, O LORD, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.

 

[Simplelogic]

In case anyone starts to think that I am proselytizing let me just make it clear that I don't believe Jew's or anyone else needs to "believe" in Yeshua to be "saved". I have long since distanced myself from this faulty Christian logic and have repented of believing it.

I do believe Jews would benefit from the words of Yeshua which call for pure Torah observance. I don't presume to think that Jews who disagree with me on this are any less righteous at all. I also completely reject any Christian or Messianic organization that attempts to "convert" Jews or teach them that they are not saved unless they believe in Yeshua. I also reject Jews for Jesus who have convinced many Jews word wide to abandon Torah. They will be judged.

 

[rosends]

No he didn't. Can you show me where Yeshua confirms Pharisaic teachings?

um...I did. Matt 23.
"2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

From the simple reading of the text it seems pretty apparent that he is telling people to follow the laws as mandated by the Pharisees. Unless you have some sort of interpretive, oral or extra-textual tradition that this means otherwise...

 

[rosends]

In case anyone starts to think that I am proselytizing let me just make it clear that I don't believe Jew's or anyone else needs to "believe" in Yeshua to be "saved". I have long since distanced myself from this faulty Christian logic and have repented of believing it.

I do believe Jews would benefit front the words of Yeshua which call for pure Torah observance. I don't presume to think that Jews who disagree with me on this are any less righteous at all. I also completely reject any Christian or Messianic organization that attempts to "convert" Jews or teach them that they are not saved unless they believe in Yeshua. I also reject Jews for Jesus who have convinced many Jews word wide to abandon Torah. They will be judged.

You would do better, then, starting with translations which actually show a knowledge of biblical Hebrew.

Psalm 22, Verse 17, for example, is better translated as "For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet." No piercing is in there.

Trying to present mistranslations which endorse Christian theology sounds a whole lot like endorsing a Christian textual world view.

Here, you should read about the actual Hebrew, the actual references and the actual context so you don't end up sounding like you are proselytizing.

A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 12. The Suffering Servant

 

[Simplelogic]

um...I did. Matt 23.
"2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

From the simple reading of the text it seems pretty apparent that he is telling people to follow the laws as mandated by the Pharisees. Unless you have some sort of interpretive, oral or extra-textual tradition that this means otherwise...

You may want to read Shem Tobs Hebrew Matthew. You also might want to look up what "Moses seat" was in the first century. It was a literal stone seat in the synagogues. When a Rabbi sat on this seat, he was required to ONLY read from the written Torah.

Here is the way the Hebrew version of Matthew puts it:

1Then spake Yeshua to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever HE (MOSES) bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Matt 23: 1-3

Tell me. Does it make any sense for Yeshua to say "obey the Pharisees" right before going into a long rant about how false they are?

 

[Simplelogic]

You would do better, then, starting with translations which actually show a knowledge of biblical Hebrew.

Psalm 22, Verse 17, for example, is better translated as "For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet." No piercing is in there.

Trying to present mistranslations which endorse Christian theology sounds a whole lot like endorsing a Christian textual world view.

Here, you should read about the actual Hebrew, the actual references and the actual context so you don't end up sounding like you are proselytizing.

A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 12. The Suffering Servant

I have read this translation. Could you explain to me the interpretation "like a lion my hands and feet"?

 

[Simplelogic]

You would do better, then, starting with translations which actually show a knowledge of biblical Hebrew.

Psalm 22, Verse 17, for example, is better translated as "For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet." No piercing is in there.

Trying to present mistranslations which endorse Christian theology sounds a whole lot like endorsing a Christian textual world view.

Here, you should read about the actual Hebrew, the actual references and the actual context so you don't end up sounding like you are proselytizing.

A comprehensive anti-missionary counter-missionary book - 12. The Suffering Servant

I have countered Tovia Singer's arguments on Isaiah 53. If you want we could do a thread on only this topic.

 

[rosends]

I have read this translation. Could you explain to me the interpretation "like a lion my hands and feet"?

Sure, that's a thousand year old question. The text is making a particular reference

"As though they are crushed in a lion’s mouth, and so did Hezekiah say (in Isa. 38: 13): “like a lion, so it would break all my bones.”"

 

[Simplelogic]

Your link isn't even the most convincing argument. Here is Tovia Singer's take on Isaiah 53.

Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 | Outreach Judaism

I recommend everyone read this mainstream Jewish defense of my position. I would then love to debate this with anyone who wants to. I will prove that Tovia's argument is completely illogical and does violence to the text itself. It still a challenging read though.

 

[rosends]

You may want to read Shem Tobs Hebrew Matthew. You also might want to look up what "Moses seat" was in the first century. It was a literal stone seat in the synagogues. When a Rabbi sat on this seat, he was required to ONLY read from the written Torah.

Here is the way the Hebrew version of Matthew puts it:

1Then spake Yeshua to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever HE (MOSES) bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Matt 23: 1-3

Tell me. Does it make any sense for Yeshua to say "obey the Pharisees" right before going into a long rant about how false they are?

I have read up on this and saw the single picture of a seat in one ruin which someone decided to call "Moses' seat" and invent a "read from" history which is uncorroborated by anyone who actually went to a synagogue back then. Not only did the reader stand, but he was accompanied by others who stood.

If Jesus hated Pharisaic teachings then why tell people to do as they teach? Saying that it has to do with just written law? Then he should have referenced the Sadducees, and he didn't. If he really didn't like Pharisaic teachings then the 6 antitheses make no sense.

 

[rosends]

I have countered Tovia Singer's arguments on Isaiah 53. If you want we could do a thread on only this topic.

That's nice. I hadn't quoted Singer's statements.

 

[rosends]

Your link isn't even the most convincing argument. Here is Tovia Singer's take on Isaiah 53.

Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 | Outreach Judaism

I recommend everyone read this mainstream Jewish defense of my position. I would then love to debate this with anyone who wants to. I will prove that Tovia's argument is completely illogical and does violence to the text itself. It still a challenging read though.

So you quote something which makes the argument (textually) that the servant is the nation and which then ADDS that there is a deeper reading which ALSO refers to a messianic figure but ONLY if you accept the authority of the oral law. Which you don't. Fascinating.

 

[Simplelogic]

So you quote something which makes the argument (textually) that the servant is the nation and which then ADDS that there is a deeper reading which ALSO refers to a messianic figure but ONLY if you accept the authority of the oral law. Which you don't. Fascinating.

I don't agree with the link I posted. I simply posted in in fairness to the discussion. I would be happy to prove to you the fallacies in this interpretation. It is easy to do.

 

[Simplelogic]

Here is a valid rebuttal to Tovia's argument:

Isaiah 53 part 1 - nakdimonspage

Isaiah 53 part 2 - nakdimonspage

 

[rosends]

Here is a valid rebuttal to Tovia's argument:

Isaiah 53 part 1 - nakdimonspage

Isaiah 53 part 2 - nakdimonspage

I started reading and stopped at the first error. That didn't take long.

The speaker in Isaiah 50 is Isaiah. He is the servant (yes, he speaks of himself as "his servant"). This was established 1000 years ago.

 

[rosends]

I don't agree with the link I posted. I simply posted in in fairness to the discussion. I would be happy to prove to you the fallacies in this interpretation. It is easy to do.

Oh, so you quote something you don't agree with but which you say is a "defense of [your] position" and you are willing to disprove its fallacies. Makes perfect sense.