Abrahamics Only: Should there be a Karaite label under the Judaism tab?

[nothead]

11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’ 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’ 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. Deut 30:11-14

Deut 30 is speaking of the Shema as far as I can tell, THIS COMMANDMENT given THIS day. The Ten were given previously, yes?

 

[Simplelogic]

Fine, then are you converting to Karaism then? I mean, the tradition of verbal Torah is not this silly simplified concept you are presenting, so there is no use arguing it with you.

No, I am not converting to anything. I simply agree with Karaites on this point.

I have already cited numerous places where the oral torah contradicts the written. You can continue to dodge these accusations but I have only scratched the surface when it comes to Torah/Oral inconsistencies.

How about this. Why doesn't someone attempt to prove the oral torah from the Tanakh itself. Do we have any examples of these additional laws being kept? God uses the prophets to call His people back to Torah throughout the Tanakh. Usually He mentions the specific sins that Israel has committed in the process. Does God ever mention any oral commands that the people turned away from?

 

[nothead]

You are misunderstanding me. I certainly don't believe in that "eye for an eye" is merely figurative. It is a concepts which sums up the entire Hebrew judicial system which details exactly how this concept should function. This is what I meant by "symbolic". It is not literal in the sense that if someone cuts off my foot, then I can go cut off theirs. It is speaking of the concept of appropriate punishment which varies according the the severity of the crime. These statutes are all literal and easy to understand in the Torah.

נִפְלֵאת is rendered "to hard" in the JPS. It can also be rendered as "not hidden". Either way, my point stands.

And this passage is what Nehemiah Gordon asserts is the basis of Peshat Law. But the specific Command was the Shema, given as they were crossing the river Jordan.

 

[Simplelogic]

I believe the surrounding context makes it clear that Deut 30:11 is in reference to the entirety of the written Torah. Others may disagree.

 

[nothead]

No, I am not converting to anything. I simply agree with Karaites on this point.

I have already cited numerous places where the oral torah contradicts the written. You can continue to dodge these accusations but I have only scratched the surface when it comes to Torah/Oral inconsistencies.

How about this. Why doesn't someone attempt to prove the oral torah from the Tanakh itself. Do we have any examples of these additional laws being kept? God uses the prophets to call His people back to Torah though out the Tanakh. Usually He mentions the specific sins that Israel has committed in the process. Does God ever mention any oral commands that the people turned away from?

All sin is primarily against the Shema, to love YHWH Elohim with all your heart, soul and might. A child of Abraham just asserting his opinion.

 

[Simplelogic]

All sin is primarily against the Shema, to love YHWH Elohim with all your heart, soul and might. A child of Abraham just asserting his opinion.

I agree with this statement. Though I believe if we truly love YHVH then we will do the rest of His commands to the best of our ability.

 

[nothead]

I believe the surrounding context makes it clear that Deut 30:11 is in reference to the entirety of the written Torah. Others may disagree.

No the entire chapter is speaking of the new command given "on that day."

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love theLord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

 

[nothead]

I agree with this statement. Though I believe if we truly love YHVH then we will do the rest of His commands to the best of our ability.

Still working on the Shema, thank you. Also the Ten. Pretty much takes care of me, for homework, that is.

 

[Desert Snake]

No, I am not converting to anything. I simply agree with Karaites on this point.

I have already cited numerous places where the oral torah contradicts the written. You can continue to dodge these accusations but I have only scratched the surface when it comes to Torah/Oral inconsistencies.

How about this. Why doesn't someone attempt to prove the oral torah from the Tanakh itself. Do we have any examples of these additional laws being kept? God uses the prophets to call His people back to Torah though out the Tanakh. Usually He mentions the specific sins that Israel has committed in the process. Does God ever mention any oral commands that the people turned away from?

Do you mean the Talmud? I don't follow the Talmud.

 

[Simplelogic]

No the entire chapter is speaking of the new command given "on that day."

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love theLord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

This command was already in force:

4HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE. 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart; 7and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. Deut 6: 4-7

Notice that the Shema appears to be a singular command at first. But verse 7 shows that it is talking about commands (plural) by using the word "them".

I agree that loving YHVH is the whole point. But the question is how do we love Him??

Deuteronomy 11:1

Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his
decrees, his laws and his commands always. …

Deuteronomy 30:16

... For I command you this day to love the LORD your God and to keep his commands,
decrees, and regulations by walking in his ways.

Daniel 9:4

I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed: "Lord, the great and awesome God, who
keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments

Deuteronomy 7:9

... that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love
to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments

Joshua 22:5

... Carefully follow the commands and teachings that the LORD's servant Moses gave you.
Love the LORD your God, follow his directions, and keep his commands.

Nehemiah 1:5

Then I said: "LORD, the God of heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps his
covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments

You see. The definition of "loving YHVH" is keeping His commandments.

 

[Simplelogic]

Do you mean the Talmud? I don't follow the Talmud.

So do you believe in only the written Torah as being valid?

 

[Desert Snake]

So do you believe in only the written Torah as being valid?

No, verbal teachings can also be valid.

 

[Simplelogic]

No, verbal teachings can also be valid.

Of course they can. If they are confirming the written Torah.

I mean do you believe in COMMANDS outside of the written Torah?

 

[Desert Snake]

Of course they can. If they are confirming the written Torah.

I mean do you believe in COMMANDS outside of the written Torah?

No, not that I can think of.

 

[Simplelogic]

No, not that I can think of.

Then what on earth are we turning our gears about?? We are of the same mindset on this specific point. I realize we may have different interpretations of Torah…big deal! We will all know the true Torah soon when messiah comes.

 

[Simplelogic]

The people who I am challenging are ones who believe that Rabbi's have a God ordained authority to make enactments which alter the Torah given to Moses. They believe that this ability of the Rabbi's is what has made Judaism survive so long. I strongly disagree and believe it is this exact premise which has kept the Jewish people in diaspora for over 2000 years.

 

[rosends]

No, I am not converting to anything. I simply agree with Karaites on this point.

I have already cited numerous places where the oral torah contradicts the written. You can continue to dodge these accusations but I have only scratched the surface when it comes to Torah/Oral inconsistencies.

How about this. Why doesn't someone attempt to prove the oral torah from the Tanakh itself. Do we have any examples of these additional laws being kept? God uses the prophets to call His people back to Torah throughout the Tanakh. Usually He mentions the specific sins that Israel has committed in the process. Does God ever mention any oral commands that the people turned away from?

Feel free to wade through these proofs and decide that, somehow, they don't prove anything.

Proofs For The Oral Law

point 14 makes an interesting case for the divine authority conferred upon the judges of any generation to interpret and apply based on logic and inference, while point 4 refers explicitly to a body of law absent from the written text.

 

[Flankerl]

I strongly disagree and believe it is this exact premise which has kept the Jewish people in diaspora for over 2000 years.

Joke's on you.

 

[nothead]

This command was already in force:

4HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE. 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart; 7and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. Deut 6: 4-7

My position is that Deut 30 is speaking of the very same command.

Deut 30

2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Notice that the Shema appears to be a singular command at first. But verse 7 shows that it is talking about commands (plural) by using the word "them".

Yeah, this is exactly how Jesus portrays the Shema in Mk 12:

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

I agree that loving YHVH is the whole point. But the question is how do we love Him??

Em, with all of our heart soul and might, just guessing?

Deuteronomy 11:1

Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his
decrees, his laws and his commands always. …

So then, what Commands were given at this point in time? Um I would guess...the Ten and the Shema? Wow I must be a genius.

Deuteronomy 30:16

... For I command you this day to love the LORD your God and to keep his commands,
decrees, and regulations by walking in his ways.

Daniel 9:4

I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed: "Lord, the great and awesome God, who
keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments

Deuteronomy 7:9

... that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love
to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments

Joshua 22:5

... Carefully follow the commands and teachings that the LORD's servant Moses gave you.
Love the LORD your God, follow his directions, and keep his commands.

Nehemiah 1:5

Then I said: "LORD, the God of heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps his
covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments

You see. The definition of "loving YHVH" is keeping His commandments.

Yeah, and primarily these COMMANDS are firstly and most importantly what?

See above. And don't try to give me more homework. I am not a Jew.

 

[nothead]

The people who I am challenging are ones who believe that Rabbi's have a God ordained authority to make enactments which alter the Torah given to Moses. They believe that this ability of the Rabbi's is what has made Judaism survive so long. I strongly disagree and believe it is this exact premise which has kept the Jewish people in diaspora for over 2000 years.

Agreed.