Absolute proof against the existence of God, as described in the Abrahamic religions

[ChristineM]

Or this God wants the whole earth covered with water so that everybody and everything non-aquatic dies, except for a few he decides to save. And it happens.

There is something of a problem with aquatic life. So much water falling as rain (salt free) would dilute the oceans beyond tolerable levels for most ocean aquatic life. At the same time the rising oceans will pollute fresh water with salt and much of the freshwater life would also be poisoned.

Its just one of the many facts that show "Noah's flood" to be yet another fairy story.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There is something of a problem with aquatic life. So much water falling as rain (salt free) would dilute the oceans beyond tolerable levels for most ocean aquatic life. At the same time the rising oceans will pollute fresh water with salt and much of the freshwater life would also be poisoned.

Its just one of the many facts that show "Noah's flood" to be yet another fairy story.

Most excellent points.

 

[MJFlores]

Oh, and later, that he wanted all the "first born" of Egypt to die -- and they died. This god has such perfect aim that he was able to immediately kill, in one night, every person and every animal in the land of Egypt who was the first out of any womb (and presumably egg, though that's not specifically mentioned. I assume "hatched" is the equivalent of "born"). Or this God wants the whole earth covered with water so that everybody and everything non-aquatic dies, except for a few he decides to save. And it happens.

The God of the Bible is not a God of chaos
He indeed sent a plagues on Ancient Egypt and it was for a reason.

Exodus 11:1-6 New International Version (NIV)
Now the Lord had said to Moses, “I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt. After that, he will let you go from here, and when he does, he will drive you out completely. Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold.” (The Lord made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and Moses himself was highly regarded in Egypt by Pharaoh’s officials and by the people.)

So Moses said, “This is what the Lord says: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again.

Now with the flood....

Genesis 6:5-11 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.

Just putting things in the proper perspective.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Our religious texts, from Moses through Mohammed (and possibly others, but I don't care) make one thing absolutely clear: what God truly wants -- IS. They tell us God wanted the heavens and earth, and they therefore happened. That he wanted man, and nothing could stop it.

Oh, and later, that he wanted all the "first born" of Egypt to die -- and they died. This god has such perfect aim that he was able to immediately kill, in one night, every person and every animal in the land of Egypt who was the first out of any womb (and presumably egg, though that's not specifically mentioned. I assume "hatched" is the equivalent of "born"). Or this God wants the whole earth covered with water so that everybody and everything non-aquatic dies, except for a few he decides to save. And it happens.

What God wants to happen, I say again, according to these religions, happens -- and nothing can stop it.

And we are also told that this God wants to be known by us, and to be worshipped, in full apprehension of his nature.

And yet....this doesn't happen! All that we appear to "know" about the nature of God, about how to worship, of what he wants, about how we should behave --- we know from billions of humans running around and arguing vociferously for this view, or that version, or these prayers, ot this set of rules. And we never, ever manage to work it out definitively.

And what's the reason? Because it's US. God doesn't want anything -- because as we know, what God wants, God gets. And this failure of ours to settle on one God, our incessant schismatic fracturing, really ought to be all the proof any thinking person needs that the proposed God simply doesn't exist -- and that that's why the state of our religious bickering is what it is.

God doesn't get what He wants all the time... the 10 sephirot didn't form in a line... when He created the firmament He did not say it was good, later He used it to flood the Earth and had to start it over with Noah... it even says He repented what He had done. When He said to have a fruit tree-yielding fruit, He only got trees yielding fruit... no fruit bark like a licorice tree.

There are plenty of times the Universe wasn't up to God's commands. Please be careful what you say.

 

[dybmh]

And we are also told that this God wants to be known by us, and to be worshiped, in full apprehension of his nature.

I don't think this is reflected in Judaism, perhaps it's part of the other Abrahamics?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We can't even get the atheists to be in agreement

About what?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Ten Commandments are ethical laws

The first 4 have nothing whatsoever to do with ethics and everything with god being petty and jealous, which doesn't seem very god-like btw.

, and you're obviously free to break them.

Obviously you aren't, considering the supposed consequences.

Let's take secular law. Are you "free" the break the laws concerning paying taxes? Traffic laws? Are you "free" to be a gangster?

Clearly you aren't...

I am free to choose chicken for dinner instead of beef or fish. I am not free to choose to eat a human.

So you mentioning that is irrelevant. Again, we have free will.

I disagree. In every other instance, what god wanst - god gets. That's kind of how it goes when you're an omnipotent all knowing being.

And as christians like preaching so much, god wants to be worshipped. God wants to be loved. God wants us to know him. But he isn't even reaching a 50% success rate.

Especially the "know him" part is curious.
I'ld follow you in the free will thing, when it comes to things like "wants to be loved / worshipped"... as making that happen would indeed violate our free will.

However, making his existance known, does not violate our free will at all.
We'ld still be "free" to follow, love, worship or walk away, hate and rebel.

And for an omnipotent all knowing entity, making ones existance known to others would be a very trivial thing to do.

So if god wants us to know him, why don't we actually all know him?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You aren't arguing against @Evangelicalhumanist 's point.
To summarise, he says

There is no entity that is omnipotent (what it wills, happens) and that wills us to know it.
(Because we don't know it and that goes against its will, which is absolute.)

Your argument is

There is an entity that is not omnipotent.

You didn't really address the claim, There is no contradiction.

Except that's not what I said. God is omnipotent. He just allows room for His creatures to have freedom to make their own decisions.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Except that's not what I said. God is omnipotent. He just allows room for His creatures to have freedom to make their own decisions.

But you cannot possibly make informed decisions in the face of lack of knowledge.

So my point is that -- even though I might have the freedom to do with the knowledge as I pleased -- no omnipotent and omniscient God could leave a whole planet to guess at His existence, but could and would make the knowledge of his existence clear.

And the fact that no religion -- no, not a single one -- has even half of this planet with such knowledge as all can agree on. And that is what I argue is impossible.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But you cannot possibly make informed decisions in the face of lack of knowledge.

So my point is that -- even though I might have the freedom to do with the knowledge as I pleased -- no omnipotent and omniscient God could leave a whole planet to guess at His existence, but could and would make the knowledge of his existence clear.

And the fact that no religion -- no, not a single one -- has even half of this planet with such knowledge as all can agree on. And that is what I argue is impossible.

Over half of the world follows an Abrahamic religion and most of the billions left believe in the Supreme Being in some form, so I think He's done a pretty good job making Himself known since most humans believe in God, regardless of religious differences.

 

[Kenny]

About what?

Can we start here?

Atheists Start Their Own Megachurch: Is It a Religion Now? – Alternet.org

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Can we start here?

Atheists Start Their Own Megachurch: Is It a Religion Now? – Alternet.org

And why would that disturb you, Ken? Do you think only religionists should be allowed to have community of thought?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Over half of the world follows an Abrahamic religion and most of the billions left believe in the Supreme Being in some form, so I think He's done a pretty good job making Himself known since most humans believe in God, regardless of religious differences.

And yet, when I analyse what you've just said, I see that it speaks amazingly well to something called "human nature," and not a single word about the actual existence of what all those people believe in.

Your Abrahmic religions, for example -- there's a goodly portion of the second-largest of those religions that thinks the way to get into heaven with God is to get yourself killed while taking out as many "non-believers" (meaning believers from the first-largest of those religions).

Does it strike you as somehow odd that the children of believers will be taught their parents' beliefs -- and grow up to believe, too? Yet nothing done by God makes that happen, now does it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And yet, when I analyse what you've just said, I see that it speaks amazingly well to something called "human nature," and not a single word about the actual existence of what all those people believe in.

Your Abrahmic religions, for example -- there's a goodly portion of the second-largest of those religions that thinks the way to get into heaven with God is to get yourself killed while taking out as many "non-believers" (meaning believers from the first-largest of those religions).

Does it strike you as somehow odd that the children of believers will be taught their parents' beliefs -- and grow up to believe, too? Yet nothing done by God makes that happen, now does it?

You seem to be nitpicking now. You were basically saying that God doesn't exist because not everyone believes in Him. However, almost every human on the planet has at least heard of Him and most humans believe in Him, so there goes much of your argument. The Bible is the most widely read book in the world and in history, so He has done pretty well with revealing Himself that way, as well. Even atheists and anti-theists spend their time thinking about Him and arguing about Him to an extent that puts most religious people to shame in their devotion.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You seem to be nitpicking now. You were basically saying that God doesn't exist because not everyone believes in Him. However, almost every human on the planet has at least heard of Him and most humans believe in Him, so there goes much of your argument. The Bible is the most widely read book in the world and in history, so He has done pretty well with revealing Himself that way, as well. Even atheists and anti-theists spend their time thinking about Him and arguing about Him to an extent that puts most religious people to shame in their devotion.

The Bible is the most OWNED book. I'll bet you dollars to donuts it's not read nearly as much as you suggest.

But for you to say that "almost every human on the planet has at least heard of Him (God)," can you tell me what it is that they have all heard in common, and would agree on? And not argue with (or kill) each other over? Just the basics...what is the nature of God, what is his purpose for me, and what does he want me to do about.

Back your assertions up, please.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The Bible is the most OWNED book. I'll bet you dollars to donuts it's not read nearly as much as you suggest.

But for you to say that "almost every human on the planet has at least heard of Him (God)," can you tell me what it is that they have all heard in common, and would agree on? And not argue with (or kill) each other over? Just the basics...what is the nature of God, what is his purpose for me, and what does he want me to do about.

Back your assertions up, please.

For "me" in the foregoing, read "all of us," of course, and explain how "all of us" know it.

 

[Rival]

The Bible is the most OWNED book. I'll bet you dollars to donuts it's not read nearly as much as you suggest.

But for you to say that "almost every human on the planet has at least heard of Him (God)," can you tell me what it is that they have all heard in common, and would agree on? And not argue with (or kill) each other over? Just the basics...what is the nature of God, what is his purpose for me, and what does he want me to do about.

Back your assertions up, please.

It seems that your issue is basically with people being people and that you won't be satisfied until they all believe the exact same thing about the exact same G-d. The Bible doesn't expect this to be the case apart from in the Messianic Age so I don't know why you seem to.

'No longer will they teach their neighbour, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

This is a prophecy we believe has not yet been fulfilled, so the Author Himself is acknowledging this and for Him it is not a problem.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Bible is the most OWNED book. I'll bet you dollars to donuts it's not read nearly as much as you suggest.

But for you to say that "almost every human on the planet has at least heard of Him (God)," can you tell me what it is that they have all heard in common, and would agree on? And not argue with (or kill) each other over? Just the basics...what is the nature of God, what is his purpose for me, and what does he want me to do about.

Back your assertions up, please.

Back them up how? With links? You don't post anything like that for what you say so I don't feel the need to do so.

You have no way of proving that the people who own the Bible aren't reading it. You might as well say the same about any other book people own. But with billions of copies sold, even a small number of those people reading it would make it the most widely read book in history.

Why are you so concerned with what God wants from you and His purpose for you when you don't believe? Are you searching for God or something? Theological differences aside, most believers in God will you that God wants you to love Him by living a virtuous life of humble simplicity, practicing compassion, mercy and pursue truth. Your purpose would be to know Him and then to return to Hom after you die. That's the gist of it I get from the Abrahamic religions and even much of Hinduism.

 

[Kenny]

And why would that disturb you, Ken? Do you think only religionists should be allowed to have community of thought?

Who said it disturbed me? Look at it in context to the question, look at it in the context of conversation, don't pull out of it what isn't there, don't exaggerate or make it a different subject.

 

[Link]

Our religious texts, from Moses through Mohammed (and possibly others, but I don't care) make one thing absolutely clear: what God truly wants -- IS. They tell us God wanted the heavens and earth, and they therefore happened. That he wanted man, and nothing could stop it.

Oh, and later, that he wanted all the "first born" of Egypt to die -- and they died. This god has such perfect aim that he was able to immediately kill, in one night, every person and every animal in the land of Egypt who was the first out of any womb (and presumably egg, though that's not specifically mentioned. I assume "hatched" is the equivalent of "born"). Or this God wants the whole earth covered with water so that everybody and everything non-aquatic dies, except for a few he decides to save. And it happens.

What God wants to happen, I say again, according to these religions, happens -- and nothing can stop it.

And we are also told that this God wants to be known by us, and to be worshipped, in full apprehension of his nature.

And yet....this doesn't happen! All that we appear to "know" about the nature of God, about how to worship, of what he wants, about how we should behave --- we know from billions of humans running around and arguing vociferously for this view, or that version, or these prayers, ot this set of rules. And we never, ever manage to work it out definitively.

And what's the reason? Because it's US. God doesn't want anything -- because as we know, what God wants, God gets. And this failure of ours to settle on one God, our incessant schismatic fracturing, really ought to be all the proof any thinking person needs that the proposed God simply doesn't exist -- and that that's why the state of our religious bickering is what it is.

Dear human and brother in my time (contemporary),

My God doesn't send back the Mahdi and Jesus and Elijah and Enoch and others for one reason only. To keep his anger at bay and keep his the darkest warnings from coming about.

Jesus, Mahdi, Elijah, Enoch, they are suppose to all come back and be received in a good state. They will be the way we are tricked by media today, so called intellectuals and experts, and our political leaders who have hearts of devils, be accused of being a league of elite sorcerers and their miracles from God will be denied.

We aren't ready now. No wants the world to be this way, not God, and Quran is meant to be read in a sad tone, because the history leading to Mohammad is mostly sad and almost all catastrophe.

We humans are lead to follow examples, but most of, we follow majority type example. That is we think something is alright if majority does it. And we go with the flow. The flow of humanity has been evil through and through.

God has been sending breath after breath in form of revelations and holy guides forming one rope from him, time and time, again, and again.

The last of the houses, the family of the reminder of this time, the last way to God, they faced more oppression, betrayal, envy, and hate from the people entrusted to follow them, then anyone of the chosen Messengers of the past.

It's a sad history but if they were followed, there would be no chaos in the land, justice and peace would've prevailed, and miracles would be in the open. I understand your frustration. I made a thread stating the same frustration as you with empathy to misguided Atheists and Deists in this regard, but I keep my faith in these dark times, because I have sought the signs and proofs and evidence, and I know God and his rope, and I hold on to them in this ever dark night.

But as past Messengers couldn't prevail due to the apathy of their followers to prepare for Mohammad, he came in a dire circumstances. Turned that around for a while, only, to so that Ali and his family be betrayed and face the worst oppression.

God we all hate this. No one likes this. No one. But you can either cry about it and disbelieve, or find God's guidance and become part of his plan, even though it's back up plan of back up plan, one of the last of the error handling plans he had in mind.

We aren't meant to be here, and I fear the consequences and shame that will the be the legacy of humanity, with no future to redeem ourselves, is coming about. We about to face the most darkest Prophecies of Quran, it's biggest warnings.

I pray Mahdi, Jesus, Elijah, Enoch, and other remaining ones that God preserved of his chosen, come back on good terms. It's just. Chances are...

Yeah, not looking good. We all know.